Costs of Owning and Operating Comaprison

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giaviv

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giaviv
hey guys,

I'm looking into buying a single engine land for my time building and fun flying. I prefer a 4 seater (mainly 172's or PA-28, just because I've flown both), though a 2 seater would also work if the costs are too high for a 4 seater.

I have researched the web and I have an idea of how much insurance, tie-down and annual inspections are. however, I would like your advice on the dynamic costs of maintenance and operation. i intend to own the airplane for about 4 years and to fly around 500 hours during that time.

assuming a 152, 172 and PA-28, all in roughly the same mechanical condition, which is more cost effective? a 152 burns around 7 GPH, 172 8 GPH and PA-28 9 GPH (does that make sense?)
which airplane is more reliable and cheaper to maintain? what would you guys recommend for me?

thanks!
 
It is really going to depend. You could get a 172 that needs repairing all the time, or you could get a 172 that never needs anything done but the oil changes and annual inspections. Same goes for the 152 and PA28. Insurance is going to vary by hull value, but assuming none of them have stuff go wrong, the 152 is going to be the most cost effective if you just want to put hours on the plane. However, that 152 is going to get cramped in a hurry, and I can't see flying 125 hours a year in one. Then again, I have to fold myself into 3rds to just get in it.
 
There is nothing certified that is cheaper to feed and maintain than a 150.
 
how much money does it take? "all of it"
 
As Ed said, airplanes are total wild cards. It could be a two seater or a four seater between 100 HP and 180 HP and it all depends on what happens to engines, systems, airframes, etc. Remember, most of these planes are 30 - 40 years old and have had varying levels of use and maintenance. A good pre-buy or annual inspection will reveal a lot, but not everything. You need a good reserve just in case something goes wrong. What's a good cash reserve? For a simple single that you are talking about probably on the order of $25K.
 
ok thanks. what guidelines should i follow when looking at online ads?
what are good TTAF / SMOH times for those airplanes? is there a reference guide i can read that will help me get a better idea of these details?
 
Being zero-times owner like yourself... and thus in the blind-leading-the-blind type of situation... here's nonetheless how I look at it: TTAF is not all that important, unless a) it's some ridiculous number like 12000 or b) it's a time-limited airframe like Tomahawk. As for engine SMOH, well, obviously you cannot find one beyond 2000 :) So, roughly, 400 is "brand new", 900 is "well preserved", and 1500 is "replace soon". The most important part is to know the hidden places for corrosion. For example, in my favourite, Sundowner (it's exactly like PA28 but with TWO DOORS), there's a place in flap where an inspection port has to be drilled to check for corrosion. In Bonanza, they have some weird tub-shaped structure attached to the spar that needs to be checked. Basically, hire a pre-buy expert, and if he finds corrosion - no deal.
 
yea but my favorite 172 at the FBO had 14,000 hours TTAF and over 3000 SMOH.

zaitcev said:
Being zero-times owner like yourself... and thus in the blind-leading-the-blind type of situation... here's nonetheless how I look at it: TTAF is not all that important, unless a) it's some ridiculous number like 12000 or b) it's a time-limited airframe like Tomahawk. As for engine SMOH, well, obviously you cannot find one beyond 2000 :) So, roughly, 400 is "brand new", 900 is "well preserved", and 1500 is "replace soon". The most important part is to know the hidden places for corrosion. For example, in my favourite, Sundowner (it's exactly like PA28 but with TWO DOORS), there's a place in flap where an inspection port has to be drilled to check for corrosion. In Bonanza, they have some weird tub-shaped structure attached to the spar that needs to be checked. Basically, hire a pre-buy expert, and if he finds corrosion - no deal.
Click to expand...
 
The aircraft I fly have 10,000 and 8,000 TT, respectively, and they're piston twins.

High TT is not something that would shy me away. Ridiculously high is something like 30,000 hours. That would make me bat an eye. Pressurized can be different, as the airframe may have a life limit that gets in the way.
 
giaviv said:
ok thanks. what guidelines should i follow when looking at online ads?
what are good TTAF / SMOH times for those airplanes? is there a reference guide i can read that will help me get a better idea of these details?
Click to expand...

AOPA has an online tool called Vref that can provide a rough estimate for an airplane's likely market value. You can enter AFTT, SMOH, common options, and so on, and it will compute the change in market value. Vref is available only to AOPA members, so you would have to join AOPA first.

I have no idea how accurate the tool is, but it would be exceedingly unlikely that any given plane would actually trade hands at the amount it estimates even if it were dead accurate "on average."
 
These are hourly costs for a Cessna 172 with a lycoming 360 in it. (will vary plane to plane)

$40 gas (variable cost, depending on where I get it)
$7 insurance
$9 hail shed
$3 oil change
$10 annual
$15 overhaul
$5 dollar unexpected maintenance
+________________
$89 an hour

Which isn't much cheaper than some rentals, but It's nice being able to hop in and go when I want to. Also it's nice not having people in primary flight training beating up the airplane practicing landings.
 
how many hours a year is this based on?
 
Of course, the thing to remember is the difference in fixed costs vs. variable costs. Insurance and hangar are fixed. Annual and MX typically end up being variable.

The interesting thing is that your variable costs end up going down per hour if you fly more. So really, it's best if a plane can fly a lot.
 
Here's the deal.

If you rent. It costs, lets say, $100 per hour. So, you are sitting in the lazy boy thinking, do I really want to cut a check for $100 or not?

If you own, it costs $20 for the gas to go for a ride. That's a lot easier to swallow. Plus, you have to pay hangar, insurance, etc. no matter what. So it comes down to, gee, I better get out to the airport so I get something for my money.

If you want to fly, buy.

If you want to be an accountant, go to school.
 
The OP is over thinking. There will be a limited number of candidates, since one is only going to incur so much acquisition cost for a low-end time building aircraft. Like the guys said, total time doesn't matter unless its nuts. Engine time does, but its more of a bargaining point. If the engine is mid time, it might point the way to inexpensive acquisition, and the engine will still be mid-time when all is said and done.

Lots of things contribute to an aircraft's value.
Paint. Painting an airplane costs as much as a major, so beware.

Avionics. Does the OP want to do the IFR thing? If so, it might be worth it to pay a premium for good avionics.

Interior. Is it going to start tearing? Interiors take lots of either time or money.

Look around your area and see what's for sale. You'll figure out pretty quick what's what, and afterwards what kind of deal you can really cut. The nice thing is unless you totally blow it, the aircraft will be worth near what you paid for it (I can't see the market getting that much worse). There is loads of advice on the board already on how to purchase an aircraft, lots of it is pretty good.
 
Standard advice: If you can't afford to replace the engine tomorrow, you can't afford to buy any aircraft.
 
giaviv said:
hey guys,

I'm looking into buying a single engine land for my time building and fun flying. I prefer a 4 seater (mainly 172's or PA-28, just because I've flown both), though a 2 seater would also work if the costs are too high for a 4 seater.

I have researched the web and I have an idea of how much insurance, tie-down and annual inspections are. however, I would like your advice on the dynamic costs of maintenance and operation. i intend to own the airplane for about 4 years and to fly around 500 hours during that time.

assuming a 152, 172 and PA-28, all in roughly the same mechanical condition, which is more cost effective? a 152 burns around 7 GPH, 172 8 GPH and PA-28 9 GPH (does that make sense?)
which airplane is more reliable and cheaper to maintain? what would you guys recommend for me?

thanks!
Click to expand...


It's airplane serial number specific between those planes. It's all about condition and luck.
 
What number are you using for a paint job?

I don't think you could spend
steingar said:
The OP is over thinking. There will be a limited number of candidates, since one is only going to incur so much acquisition cost for a low-end time building aircraft. Like the guys said, total time doesn't matter unless its nuts. Engine time does, but its more of a bargaining point. If the engine is mid time, it might point the way to inexpensive acquisition, and the engine will still be mid-time when all is said and done.

Lots of things contribute to an aircraft's value.
Paint. Painting an airplane costs as much as a major, so beware.

Avionics. Does the OP want to do the IFR thing? If so, it might be worth it to pay a premium for good avionics.

Interior. Is it going to start tearing? Interiors take lots of either time or money.

Look around your area and see what's for sale. You'll figure out pretty quick what's what, and afterwards what kind of deal you can really cut. The nice thing is unless you totally blow it, the aircraft will be worth near what you paid for it (I can't see the market getting that much worse). There is loads of advice on the board already on how to purchase an aircraft, lots of it is pretty good.
Click to expand...
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
If you rent. It costs, lets say, $100 per hour. So, you are sitting in the lazy boy thinking, do I really want to cut a check for $100 or not?

If you own, it costs $20 for the gas to go for a ride. That's a lot easier to swallow. Plus, you have to pay hangar, insurance, etc. no matter what. So it comes down to, gee, I better get out to the airport so I get something for my money.
Click to expand...
In a way I think this is true, but I have known a number of people who have bought an airplane or a share only to lose interest and let it sit. If you are renting you don't have anything invested and can walk away. Remember it's almost always easier to buy than sell unless you are willing to give it away. That goes for practically everthing I've bought (which doesn't include an airplane). This is offset by the control and pride of ownership, which to some people is worth the commitment of money.
 
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