Cool aviation coincidence...

Dana said:
Many great men were sadly human, with character flaws and/or beliefs that reflected their times. Celebrate them for their accomplishments, not their flaws.
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And many are diminished by their flaws, which can outweigh their heroism. Nazi sympathy is a pretty big black mark, and I know polygamy (he had three families) would be for most as well. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
 
also probably killed the kid in a prank gone wrong
 
There are. I can’t remember all of them but the essence was that he was a big practical joker and he was playing a joke and accidentally killed the boy. i’ll research it a bit more. also for sure hauptman was a scammer who got some of the ransom but almost certainly not the kidnapper
 
Charles Lindbergh was a politician that represented enough views of this constituents to be voted into public office. As such, he was a target for malicious attack by his political enemies, amplified and continued by the media and other self-anointed historians who didn't agree with his views spoken during a much different era than today. That's the nature of political life in a free society. Culture and society change with time.

I've learned not to take any information spewed out by the media into the political arena at face value. It's much better to focus on today and tomorrow, than to hash over what's happened (or maybe not happened) in the past.

Drive forward while viewing the roadway through the rearview mirror? Nope.
 
"I don't believe in any history (except the one I choose to like) and also, history isn't helpful. But still, I possess an accurate an unquestionable understanding of said history. Also sour grapes.

"As these debates continued, public criticism of Lindbergh’s views and of the America First Committee grew. In his speech called "Who are the War Agitators?" delivered in Des Moines, Iowa, on Sep 11, 1941, Lindbergh argued that the Roosevelt administration, the British "race," and the "Jewish race" were pushing America towards war."

I'm sure accepting a medal from Herman G. was just a (checks notes) "malicious attack by his political enemies"

airandspace.si.edu

Hermann Goering Gives Charles Lindbergh a Medal | National Air and Space Museum

Herman Goering presents Lindbergh with the Service Cross of the German Eagle (with Star).
airandspace.si.edu airandspace.si.edu

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Hengelo said:
I'm sure accepting a medal from Herman G. was just a (checks notes) "malicious attack by his political enemies"
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That was in 1938. Lindbergh was acting as an Allied spy, being allowed by Goering to observe and even fly some of the German aircraft.

He was decidedly anti-war and isolationist, but not pro-Hitler.

www.upi.com

Lindbergh's spy missions in Germany - UPI Archives

Charles A. Lindbergh, often branded as a Nazi sympathizer during World War II, gathered intelligence for the United States on four visits to Germany before...
www.upi.com www.upi.com
 
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Lindberg also (maybe) committed a war crime by climbing into American combat aircraft in the Pacific and participating in missions. Whether or not he had sympathy for the National Socialist Party, he placed himself on America's side when it counted.
 
2-Bit Speed said:
Lindberg also (maybe) committed a war crime by climbing into American combat aircraft in the Pacific and participating in missions. Whether or not he had sympathy for the National Socialist Party, he placed himself on America's side when it counted.
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I would imagine most rational thinking Americans (likely not all) can agree that every one of the American aviators captured by Japanese soldiers and having their heads ceremoniously removed with a sword would all strongly disagree with your opinion. They actually had skin in the game, and real world experience.

An associate of mine a was a former US soldier who survived the Bataan death march. If you were old enough (which I doubt you were) and even knew what that event was (which I also doubt) to assist the formulation of your own brave opinion about American war crimes, it would have been advisable to have kept your mouth shut in the presence of this man (who died in 2010). At a business dinner I witnessed some young guy seated at a nearly table make the mistake of intentionally not standing up during a rendition of "God Bless America", then proceeded to get choked (by use of the young man's own tie) by this older (but still fit) US Army veteran. Old school, but he got the point across...
 
Rick A said:
I would imagine most rational thinking Americans (likely not all) can agree that every one of the American aviators captured by Japanese soldiers and having their heads ceremoniously removed with a sword would all strongly disagree with your opinion. They actually had skin in the game, and real world experience.

An associate of mine a was a former US soldier who survived the Bataan death march. If you were old enough (which I doubt you were) and even knew what that event was (which I also doubt) to assist the formulation of your own brave opinion about American war crimes, it would have been advisable to have kept your mouth shut in the presence of this man (who died in 2010). At a business dinner I witnessed some young guy seated at a nearly table make the mistake of intentionally not standing up during a rendition of "God Bless America", then proceeded to get choked (by use of the young man's own tie) by this older (but still fit) US Army veteran. Old school, but he got the point across...
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I don’t think your reading comprehension was turned up high enough to over come your disdain of some of the views posted in the thread. You’re criticizing the wrong person.

I think… I may not be good at reading comprehension.
 
That is the most blatant sarcasm I have read in a long time, by 2bitspeed.

Rick A said:
I would imagine most rational thinking Americans (likely not all) can agree that every one of the American aviators captured by Japanese soldiers and having their heads ceremoniously removed with a sword would all strongly disagree with your opinion. They actually had skin in the game, and real world experience.

An associate of mine a was a former US soldier who survived the Bataan death march. If you were old enough (which I doubt you were) and even knew what that event was (which I also doubt) to assist the formulation of your own brave opinion about American war crimes, it would have been advisable to have kept your mouth shut in the presence of this man (who died in 2010). At a business dinner I witnessed some young guy seated at a nearly table make the mistake of intentionally not standing up during a rendition of "God Bless America", then proceeded to get choked (by use of the young man's own tie) by this older (but still fit) US Army veteran. Old school, but he got the point across...
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When the chips were down, Lindberg took his chances in defense of America, regardless of the criticism of claimed anti Semitism, and support of Hitler.

With his credibility destroyed, the American military did not believe his reports of performance, and were surprised, after the capture of examples, and testing them, they were as good or better than he had reported.
 
wellknow said:
also for sure hauptman was a scammer who got some of the ransom but almost certainly not the kidnapper
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A bunch of years ago I attended a forensics seminar presented by one of the top scientists in the NJ state police crime lab. The focus was on more modern chemical techniques, but they touched on the Lindbergh kidnapping. What I remember from that was a series of photos exactly lining up the grain patterns of each rung in the homemade ladder left outside Lindbergh’s house with where each piece had been cut out of the flooring in Hauptman’s attic.

Ok, kinda still circumstantial, but a lot of work to go through just to frame someone.
 
Speaking of checkered records, rather apropos that tomorrow is the day earmarked for that Cristobal Colón guy (sorry DeSantis, it's Isaías lol). I consider him the first Pilot: Terrible at math, TLAR'd the living crap out of it with hubris, survives in spite of himself, then called it a triple. :rofl:

...as to the ethnic cleansing his accidental survival set in motion, well that's what we got Indigenous People's Day for. Alas, in typical 'Murican fashion, they jip me yet another day off by celebrating it on the same day. With friends like these who needs the Taliban amma' right? :fingerwag:
 
2-Bit Speed said:
Lindberg also (maybe) committed a war crime by climbing into American combat aircraft in the Pacific and participating in missions. Whether or not he had sympathy for the National Socialist Party, he placed himself on America's side when it counted.
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How would that be a "war crime"?
 
hindsight2020 said:
Speaking of checkered records, rather apropos that tomorrow is the day earmarked for that Cristobal Colón guy (sorry DeSantis, it's Isaías lol). I consider him the first Pilot: Terrible at math, TLAR'd the living crap out of it with hubris, survives in spite of himself, then called it a triple. :rofl:

...as to the ethnic cleansing his accidental survival set in motion, well that's what we got Indigenous People's Day for. Alas, in typical 'Murican fashion, they jip me yet another day off by celebrating it on the same day. With friends like these who needs the Taliban amma' right? :fingerwag:
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Another perfection.
 
Sometimes, in order to get a glimpse of the truth, it's necessary to delve deeper than the SGOTI level. Fortunately for those interested, Lindbergh kept journals that were published under the title The Wartime Journals of Charles A. Lindbergh. I found that volume to be a very interesting read, and one that offers many insights into the man himself and the world that he inhabited.
 
Roger Wilco said:
Sometimes, in order to get a glimpse of the truth, it's necessary to delve deeper than the SGOTI level. Fortunately for those interested, Lindbergh kept journals that were published under the title The Wartime Journals of Charles A. Lindbergh. I found that volume to be a very interesting read, and one that offers many insights into the man himself and the world that he inhabited.
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Thanks - I found a used copy on-line for $6 - looking forward to the read. He was a complicated guy in complicated times.
 
Roger Wilco said:
Sometimes, in order to get a glimpse of the truth, it's necessary to delve deeper than the SGOTI level. Fortunately for those interested, Lindbergh kept journals that were published under the title The Wartime Journals of Charles A. Lindbergh. I found that volume to be a very interesting read, and one that offers many insights into the man himself and the world that he inhabited.
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Someday I hope to read Lindberg's Wartime Journals, and I'd imagine Lindberg had some of the same philosophy as General George Patton.

I did get a read of Patton's family authorized a hardcover book, the "Patton Papers 1940 to 1945". He kept meticulous notes and a near daily diary recording noteworthy WWII experiences. He was definitely not a politician, and very candid regarding his wartime dealings with world political leaders, all from the viewpoint of a super American patriot who didn't want America included in the massive amount of covert efforts being applied throughout our political system to activity expand Soviet control and influence.
 
GaryM said:
A bunch of years ago I attended a forensics seminar presented by one of the top scientists in the NJ state police crime lab. The focus was on more modern chemical techniques, but they touched on the Lindbergh kidnapping. What I remember from that was a series of photos exactly lining up the grain patterns of each rung in the homemade ladder left outside Lindbergh’s house with where each piece had been cut out of the flooring in Hauptman’s attic.

Ok, kinda still circumstantial, but a lot of work to go through just to frame someone.
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interesting. the hauptman family is suing nj or the stare police to get access to dna that they think will exonerate hauptman
 
Rick A said:
Someday I hope to read Lindberg's Wartime Journals, and I'd imagine Lindberg had some of the same philosophy as General George Patton.

I did get a read of Patton's family authorized a hardcover book, the "Patton Papers 1940 to 1945". He kept meticulous notes and a near daily diary recording noteworthy WWII experiences. He was definitely not a politician, and very candid regarding his wartime dealings with world political leaders, all from the viewpoint of a super American patriot who didn't want America included in the massive amount of covert efforts being applied throughout our political system to activity expand Soviet control and influence.
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Patton wanted to push Russia back and out of europe. he foresaw what would happen if we didnt
 
StraightnLevel said:
How would that be a "war crime"?
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I suspect because he was a civilian at the time. He flew about 50 combat missions and had a confirmed kill. Whether that constitutes a “war crime” might be a matter of debate, and probably why 2-bit said “maybe.”

Nevertheless, civilians fought in various ways, regardless of legality. CAP planes carried bombs, civilians served as spotters on islands in the South Pacific, civilians carried out espionage missions, etc. I believe the merchant marine was considered civilian, even though they were placed under military control. Civilians flew military transport missions, including flying the hump.
 
Rick A said:
At a business dinner I witnessed some young guy seated at a nearly table make the mistake of intentionally not standing up during a rendition of "God Bless America", then proceeded to get choked (by use of the young man's own tie) by this older (but still fit) US Army veteran. Old school, but he got the point across...
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If that story is true (which I doubt), all it proves is that being a veteran does not exempt one from stupidity.

What a shame he never understood the principles he fought and suffered for.
 
Sometimes we can draw a sharp line between before, and after.

Summer of 1958, Caserma Chinnotto, Italy.

I was walking to the mess hall with a casual friend, an NCO.

Retreat sounded from the loud speaker at the far side of the post, we both stopped, turned to face the invisible flag, and stood at parade rest.

I was relaxed and casual, he was sharp and rigid.

Taps sounded, he came to rigid attention and saluted.
At the end of taps, his right hand came down smoothly, with some hesitation, he turned to the right, and we continued to the mess hall, and I realized that there were tears dripping from his chin.

I asked why. "I say the names of all my friends who died in Korea with me. Taps is not quite long enough" from that day, I came to formal parade rest, and sharply to attention for taps, and thought about how lucky I was, I had no names to remember.

A sharp line, with a clear before and after.

Edited to add, I was a draftee, and saw no combat time. All the troops who were PFC or below were draftees, and we had a casual attitude toward Military traditions.
 
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Ed Haywood said:
If that story is true (which I doubt), all it proves is that being a veteran does not exempt one from stupidity.

What a shame he never understood the principles he fought and suffered for.
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I suspect that there might be a little more to the story than just some guy not standing. Imagine how it might go if both parties were not the epitome of diplomacy. I'm not saying that is what happened.
 
StraightnLevel said:
How would that be a "war crime"?
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First, it's questionable, which is why I included the word "Maybe" in parentheses. Lindberg was not a 'Uniformed Combatant' while performing military actions. That might have been determined to be a war crime if it ever went before a trial.

...

Or a court martial.
 
Rick A said:
I would imagine most rational thinking Americans (likely not all) can agree that every one of the American aviators captured by Japanese soldiers and having their heads ceremoniously removed with a sword would all strongly disagree with your opinion. They actually had skin in the game, and real world experience.
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I'm not sure how much more skin Lindberg could have had 'in the game.' He volunteered (as a civilian) to teach US pilots leaning and other techniques useful for long-range or endurance flying. He did this on Pacific islands that were occasionally in reach of Japanese strikes. He further volunteered (as a civilian) to climb into US planes that were going out on combat missions, thus flying right alongside US servicemen, facing the same potential of being shot down, and facing the same or possibly worse consequences if he had been captured after being shot down.

Rick A said:
If you were old enough (which I doubt you were) and even knew what that event was (which I also doubt) to assist the formulation of your own brave opinion about American war crimes, it would have been advisable to have kept your mouth shut in the presence of this man (who died in 2010).
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I find your condescension distasteful.
 
War crimes and combatant status are two different concepts.

War crimes pertains to the legality of the actions a person takes while engaged in armed warfare.

Combatant status pertains to the legal protections a person is entitled to while participating in armed warfare.

Without getting too deeply into the nuances, Lindbergh did not commit any act that would constitute a war crime. However, he arguably did not have legal protection to participate in combat and could have been prosecuted by the enemy as an unlawful combatant were he captured.
 
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Ed Haywood said:
War crimes and combatant status are two different concepts.

War crimes pertains to the legality of the actions a person takes while engaged in armed warfare.

Combatant status pertains to the legal protections a person is entitled to while participating in armed warfare.

Without getting too deeply into the nuances, Lindbergh did not commit any act that would constitute a war crime. However, he arguably did not have legal protection to participate in combat and could have been prosecuted by the enemy as an unlawful combatant were he captured.
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Thank you for the clarification.
 
2-Bit Speed said:
Thank you for the clarification.
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My pleasure. FWIW, this thread caused me to look into his views on Hitler as well as his family history. His comments in his personal journals are damning. While he committed a heroic act of aviation, he certainly is not someone I would hold up as an example to emulate. Although TBF having your baby kidnapped and murdered would put a lot of us off our rockers.
 
Bob Noel said:
I suspect that there might be a little more to the story than just some guy not standing.
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Not really much more. There was a modest amount of alcohol involved. The guy got yanked up out of his seat by his tie, sternly spoken to on the way up, released when standing, and remained upright on his own two feet until the end of the song. Period.


Ed Haywood said:
If that story is true (which I doubt), all it proves is that being a veteran does not exempt one from stupidity.

What a shame he never understood the principles he fought and suffered for.
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After learning just a little (more than I wanted to know) about his survival at Bataan, I'm surprised you honestly consider his reaction stupid and showed a lack of his understanding about suffering, and freedom... not to mention your insult and disbelief that the incident ever occurred.

The actions of this veteran was a little over the top for most veterans, including you and me. As far as I'm concerned, he earned the freedom to do it at his own free will. I wouldn't dream of criticizing him. Many military drill instructors have done worse, especially back in the day.
 
RalphInCA said:
Freedom to attack somebody? For *legally* not doing what he thought they should do?
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This veteran probably viewed it from another more personal angle... as an insult to himself, the nation, and the large group of people who rose up out of their seats to sing. Was this act of violence over the top? Yes it was.

This event occurred in the early 1990's. Back then, as far as I know most school children, even in progressive states, were required to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance at the beginning of each school day. Nowadays, that's not the case in many schools.

American culture has changed. When I was a kid and WWII and Korea War veterans were running things, yanking someone insulting America out of their seat (without any bodily harm) to stand up back at a time it was culturally accepted, and considered more appropriate to do so, may have been met with applause, not condemnation.

Back then national heroes like Charles Lindbergh would not be having their history and legacy besmirched by the political thought police many decades after they lived in a vastly different America.
 
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