Conviction question

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I have a non-traffic misdemeanor conviction from roughly three years ago. The official charge was "Making a handgun available to a person under 21". I had left a revolver in my truck after a trip to the range, and my 20 year 8 month old son (who is an experienced shooter and hunter safety instructor) got pulled over for speeding. I paid a fine, got a year of probation and we all went on our way.

Is this likely to cause any problems? It's the only time in my life I've ever faced more than a speeding ticket.
 
I don't think they will even ask... Haven't filled out a medical application in a while but I don't think they ask at all. I know of a local pilot here who robbed a convenience store 7-8 years prior and was licensed. (He wound up crashing and killing himself last year and 3 others). IIRC the "good moral character" clause in the ATP rating means "no felony convictions".
 
You'll have to report it by checking the "yes" box on "nontraffic felonies or misdemeanors," and explain it in the block below that, but you'll have to wait for Bruce to check in with what the impact of that will be.
 
What state is that law in?

Pretty sure I was shooting revolvers at the range at summer camp when I was about 11. I don't think you can buy a handgun if you are under 21 in NC...
 
You report it, explain it, and go on. Provided you do not have a series of convictions, it's not drug/alcohol conviction, and you are not also reporting things like mental health issues (which they may fear are related), it shouldn't be a problem.
 
dell30rb said:
What state is that law in?

Pretty sure I was shooting revolvers at the range at summer camp when I was about 11. I don't think you can buy a handgun if you are under 21 in NC...
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I was kinda looking at the post sideways too, I owned a revolver much younger than 20, heck I got plenty of guns for christmas presents, 22 revolver for target practice, a .410 for bird/squirrel hunting and a 30/30 for deer hunting... Before the world went crazy we used to keep our hunting rifles in the back window of our trucks AT SCHOOL!!!!! GASP!!! so that we could head directly to the woods when the bell rang. you'd be under the prison, expelled and burned at the stake these days.
 
It was Iowa, which has some funny ideas about firearms. Had he not been in a county where the county attorney had a thing for my in-laws, it probably wouldn't have been a big deal. But, they were bound and determined that SOMEONE was going to pay a fine. Like I said, he was a little short of his 21st birthday at the time, and didn't even know the cannon was in the truck. I had forgotten it too, when I tossed him the keys to use my truck to go make a run somewhere during a family get-together.
 
Unregistered said:
It was Iowa, which has some funny ideas about firearms. Had he not been in a county where the county attorney had a thing for my in-laws, it probably wouldn't have been a big deal. But, they were bound and determined that SOMEONE was going to pay a fine. Like I said, he was a little short of his 21st birthday at the time, and didn't even know the cannon was in the truck. I had forgotten it too, when I tossed him the keys to use my truck to go make a run somewhere during a family get-together.
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That just doesn't sound right to me? If you leave your 20 year old at home with guns while you go to the grocery store are you still in violation of the law? My parents would have been cited daily... sounds screwy to me. I don't think you're going to have an issue with getting a medical, or at least not much of one.... Just don't lie. Someone will probably know "the answer".
 
bartmc said:
That just doesn't sound right to me? If you leave your 20 year old at home with guns while you go to the grocery store are you still in violation of the law? My parents would have been cited daily... sounds screwy to me. I don't think you're going to have an issue with getting a medical, or at least not much of one.... Just don't lie. Someone will probably know "the answer".
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Apparently if you live there and don't have them locked up, or if your 20 year old knows where the keys are, then yes. I'm glad I don't live there, it just sucks to have to visit. They only recently adopted a "shall issue" law for carry, before that you had to go beg your local sheriff for a permit, which he was free to deny you if he felt like it. Amazing.

I wouldn't lie on the medical form or anywhere else. Just want to be prepared if this will cause delays or problems.
 
I realize you don't want to say where that happened, but I'd sure like to avoid that place myself!
 
I'm not touching this string. The OP may PM me if he wants. but BartMc, the world you knew is gone-gone-gone.

And I'm not saying any more.
 
bartmc said:
That just doesn't sound right to me? If you leave your 20 year old at home with guns while you go to the grocery store are you still in violation of the law? My parents would have been cited daily... sounds screwy to me. I don't think you're going to have an issue with getting a medical, or at least not much of one.... Just don't lie. Someone will probably know "the answer".
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Home is not your vehicle. You have to be 21 to have it. Dad took one for the team. The kid would have got worse.
 
Doggtyred said:
Home is not your vehicle. You have to be 21 to have it. Dad took one for the team. The kid would have got worse.
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Depends on what state you are in, in MT they can't search your car without a warrant, AFAIK, they can't even ask and can't even search it if you ask them to without a warrant. If this charge came about in MT, it'd take about 1 call to a newspaper to have the cops and courts head on a stick, I'd have taken it to trial, this looks like a textbook case for jury nullification.
 
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bartmc said:
Depends on what state you are in, in MT they can't search your car without a warrant, AFAIK, they can't even ask and can't even search it if you ask them to without a warrant. If this charge came about in MT, it'd take about 1 call to a newspaper to have the cops and courts head on a stick, I'd have taken it to trial, this looks like a textbook case for jury nullification.
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Part of the issue may be that the O/P does not have a concealed carry license and thus the gun was in plain sight.

You can have a gun in the vehicle with you as long as it is not concealed - if it is concealed the gun must not be easily accessed. In a pickup truck, there is no where in the cab that you can put a gun - hidden - that is not considered by law to be easily accessed.

Therefore the only legal place for the gun is to put it somewhere that can not be construed as "concealed"

In a pickup folks will put the gun on the dashboard IN A HOLSTER (don't want to be "brandishing" now do we) do there is no doubt the gun is not concealed.
 
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I did some more reading on the NC laws concerning this subject... turns out i've been un-knowingly breaking the law by having my shotgun in the back seat of my jeep - unloaded and in a carrying bag. Seemed like a reasonable place to put it.

"Obviously, a weapon would be concealed and
readily accessible, and therefore in violation of North Carolina law, if it were placed in such
areas of a vehicle as under the seat of the automobile; in a bag in the back seat;"
 
dell30rb said:
Part of the issue may be that the O/P does not have a concealed carry license and thus the gun was in plain sight.

You can have a gun in the vehicle with you as long as it is not concealed - if it is concealed the gun must not be easily accessed. In a pickup truck, there is no where in the cab that you can put a gun - hidden - that is not considered by law to be easily accessed.

Therefore the only legal place for the gun is to put it somewhere that can not be construed as "concealed"

In a pickup folks will put the gun on the dashboard IN A HOLSTER (don't want to be "brandishing" now do we) do there is no doubt the gun is not concealed.
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That does not describe montana law. The only reason you need a conceal and carry permit in MT is so that you can walk around in the few cities with a concealed weapon. The rest of the state, shove the gun wherever you want to and go, if the cops searched your car without a warrant issue by a judge, they'd be in more trouble than you and unless there was something sketchy about the gun, stolen or you being a felon, there wouldn't be any charges filed even if they did search with a warrant and found it.
 
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bartmc said:
That does not describe montana law.
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This incident happened, as noted earlier, in Iowa. Iowa laws differ significantly from Montana laws, and from laws in many other states (including my own). In my state, it is perfectly legal to have a loaded pistol in the car as long as it's not concealed. In Iowa that will get you thrown in jail.

if the cops searched your car without a warrant issue by a judge, they'd be in more trouble than you and unless there was something sketchy about the gun, stolen or you being a felon, there wouldn't be any charges filed even if they did search with a warrant and found it.
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Unless the driver of the vehicle, not knowing there was anything in the vehicle that could cause him trouble, made the naive mistake of allowing the officer to search it. If you give permission, no warrant is needed.
 
There are (at least) two House bills drafted right now that would force CCW reciprocity across all States. If by some miracle any of them passed, the anti-gun lobby will make sure to bring up State's rights in the Court of Public Opinion, and drag it all the way to the Supreme Court for a real legal ruling on same.
 
Unregistered said:
This incident happened, as noted earlier, in Iowa. Iowa laws differ significantly from Montana laws, and from laws in many other states (including my own). In my state, it is perfectly legal to have a loaded pistol in the car as long as it's not concealed. In Iowa that will get you thrown in jail.



Unless the driver of the vehicle, not knowing there was anything in the vehicle that could cause him trouble, made the naive mistake of allowing the officer to search it. If you give permission, no warrant is needed.
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It's my understanding in MT, they can't even ask you and even if you ask them to search it, anything they find can't be used against you. One CFI I had was an ex-cop turned lawyer, he was from Cali and quit policing because he said MT tied their hands too much and went on to complain about the boundaries they couldn't overstep here, not to worry though, we have enough of the California mindset moving in, it won't be long.
 
Unregistered said:
Unless the driver of the vehicle, not knowing there was anything in the vehicle that could cause him trouble, made the naive mistake of allowing the officer to search it. If you give permission, no warrant is needed.
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Just one more anecdotal reason to never agree to a search. If they say they don't need your permission, let them search but make it clear you're not giving permission. I can't imagine many situations where giving up your right to unwarranted searches would be to your benefit.
 
gismo said:
Just one more anecdotal reason to never agree to a search. If they say they don't need your permission, let them search but make it clear you're not giving permission. I can't imagine many situations where giving up your right to unwarranted searches would be to your benefit.
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If you refuse to grant permission, they have pretty much two options: let it go, or hold you until they can get a warrant. You'll find out pretty quick which one they're going to do, and if you're already in handcuffs, you can bet which one it will be. In any event, it doesn't take much excuse for the police to hold you long enough to call a judge.

As for making an illegal search against your wishes, that's not something I've heard of too many cops doing. They probably know the law on that better than you do, and they don't like blowing a bust on an illegal search. Just don't interfere, because if you're wrong, you've just turned whatever you did into a felony.

OTOH, they also probably know better than you the law on what trickery they can use to get you to allow a search they couldn't make otherwise, so be careful what you say/do which might give them grounds to search when they couldn't if you hadn't effectively handed them the keys to the kingdom. Of course, the best choice is not to have anything illegal in your vehicle, so even if they do search there's nothing to find, but that's another story.

In any event, the OP's case is long since closed, and it is what it is. I hope he checks with Bruce to find out what impact that will have on his medical application.
 
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Ron Levy said:
If you refuse to grant permission, they have pretty much two options: let it go, or hold you until they can get a warrant. You'll find out pretty quick which one they're going to do, and if you're already in handcuffs, you can bet which one it will be. In any event, it doesn't take much excuse for the police to hold you long enough to call a judge.

As for making an illegal search against your wishes, that's not something I've heard of too many cops doing. They probably know the law on that better than you do, and they don't like blowing a bust on an illegal search. Just don't interfere, because if you're wrong, you've just turned whatever you did into a felony.

OTOH, they also probably know better than you the law on what trickery they can use to get you to allow a search they couldn't make otherwise, so be careful what you say/do which might give them grounds to search when they couldn't if you hadn't effectively handed them the keys to the kingdom. Of course, the best choice is not to have anything illegal in your vehicle, so even if they do search there's nothing to find, but that's another story.

In any event, the OP's case is long since closed, and it is what it is. I hope he checks with Bruce to find out what impact that will have on his medical application.
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I must (thankfully) admit that I haven't had reason to know this but are the grounds for detaining someone until a search warrant can be obtained much looser than the requirements to do a a search without said warrant? And can a warrant be obtained with nothing more than a cop's suspicion?
 
Ron Levy said:
If you refuse to grant permission, they have pretty much two options: let it go, or hold you until they can get a warrant. You'll find out pretty quick which one they're going to do, and if you're already in handcuffs, you can bet which one it will be. In any event, it doesn't take much excuse for the police to hold you long enough to call a judge.
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Let 'em call the judge then. If you refuse consent, they have to not only call the judge, but also establish to his satisfaction that they have probable cause for the search.

If you consent, they need nothing, and you cannot later challenge it. If they go and get a warrant, you can challenge the warrant at trial and have the evidence tossed out if they didn't have PC.
 
gismo said:
I must (thankfully) admit that I haven't had reason to know this but are the grounds for detaining someone until a search warrant can be obtained much looser than the requirements to do a a search without said warrant? And can a warrant be obtained with nothing more than a cop's suspicion?
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IANAL, but I think they can detain you temporarily on "reasonable suspicion", but for a search they need probable cause that crime has been committed.
 
gismo said:
Just one more anecdotal reason to never agree to a search. If they say they don't need your permission, let them search but make it clear you're not giving permission. I can't imagine many situations where giving up your right to unwarranted searches would be to your benefit.
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You're right, and additionally, Ron is mistaken. You will never gain anything by consenting to a search. Also, the police can't just detain you just to get a warrant (which absolutely can take more than 12 hours). Detention is temporary. They could of course arrest you, but they have to meet a high standard for doing that.

If they are going to arrest you, they will do so no matter if you give or don't give them consent. Don't confuse detention and arrest.
 
sba55 said:
You're right, and additionally, Ron is mistaken. You will never gain anything by consenting to a search. Also, the police can't just detain you just to get a warrant (which absolutely can take more than 12 hours). Detention is temporary. They could of course arrest you, but they have to meet a high standard for doing that.

If they are going to arrest you, they will do so no matter if you give or don't give them consent. Don't confuse detention and arrest.
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I have never been detained by a LEO. However, I have always been taught to ask if they are detaining me or not if they begin to question or want to search. I have heard to many horror stories about illegal search by LEO's or Customs, some here, that it does scare me. Often LEOs do NOT know the law.
 
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