Convention in Denver - Airport and FBO Choice

iamtheari

iamtheari

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I have the great fortune of attending a convention in Denver in early July. I thought that was a long time away, but somebody told me that June is almost over and the days are already getting shorter, so I should probably start planning my trip.

Main factors:
1. I will spend 3 or 4 nights there
2. I will fly in from the north
3. I plan to arrive in the later evening on Friday or early morning on Saturday
4. I plan to depart in the early evening on Tuesday
5. I don't need a car while I'm in town so I can take Uber to get to and from the airport
6. I plan to gas up (100LL, and I'll probably need 40 gallons) so I don't have to mess with any intermediate stops inbound or outbound
7. I plan to go in and out IFR unless there is a compelling reason to go VFR
8. I have ridden right-seat into and rear seat out of KAPA once and it didn't seem intimidating at all. This will be my first time as PIC in the Denver area, though.
9. I have some experience with high density altitudes including taking off with full tanks and a passenger out of Rock Springs (KRKS) when it was about 190 degrees outside. Call that 35C and the density altitude on the ground was 10,000'. Fun day to spend almost 6 hours wearing foggles, but I digress.

It looks like KBJC and KAPA are equidistant from downtown. I can't find anything strongly favoring or disfavoring one or the other. What I can find online (Airnav.com and Rampfee.me) gives me:

TAC Air at KAPA: $5 security fee + $15/night x 4 + $4.99/gal self-serve x 40 = $265
Signature at KBJC: $12/night x 4 + $4.60/gal self-serve x 40 = $232

These are within a nice dinner downtown of each other. So I'm open to suggestions as to which is a better choice for me.
 
Coming from the North I think I'd lean towards KBJC, the less airspace you need to cross the less random vectors you're going to get. I went into KAPA last year from the north with no issues that I recall, but used Signature there because I biked to my Hotel and Signature was a mile closer.
 
VFR corridor southbound takes you right over BJC if you have your heart set on APA. Depending on where you're staying and where the convention is, APA "might" get the nod for proximity to light rail to take you directly into downtown, but it's not walking distance, so you would still have to get to a train station from APA. So, maybe not.

I believe BJC is much easier to fly in and out of, but I'm home based there. Approaching from the north, just pay attention to Class Bravo airspace floors and stay under, or come in over Ft Collins and Longmont to stay east of it.

Those at APA might say the same for APA ... no, wait ... not if they're honest, they won't ... they're just "used to it". It's BUSY!

BJC self-service fuel is easy, but so is Signature fueling (and they own the self serve, so your choice is really "who pumps it"). Last week fuel was $4.60 Self Serve and $5.60 full service.

I've not heard anything bad about Signature, but since I'm hangared around the corner from them, I really never use any of their services. We did use their conference room for years for our monthly club meeting, but have since changed that - our choice.

Uber? Don't know, haven't used, but I imagine it's available.
 
At BJC Signature is your only option and they will charge you an arm and a leg. At APA there is competition and the prices are more reasonable.

APA is much busier than BJC, but also more in the heart of Denver.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
At BJC Signature is your only option and they will charge you an arm and a leg. At APA there is competition and the prices are more reasonable.

APA is much busier than BJC, but also more in the heart of Denver.
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Can you give some numbers to explain your comment on prices? I came up with about $32 more cost to park and pump my own gas at TAC Air (which I've seen many past recommendations to use at KAPA) compared with Signature at KBJC. I probably missed something. I'm famous for doing that.
 
iamtheari said:
Can you give some numbers to explain your comment on prices? I came up with about $32 more cost to park and pump my own gas at TAC Air (which I've seen many past recommendations to use at KAPA) compared with Signature at KBJC. I probably missed something. I'm famous for doing that.
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Signature charged me a couple hidden handling fees. $12/night + ~$48 "handling" fee + a $7 "Security" fee.
 
gkainz said:
I believe BJC is much easier to fly in and out of, but I'm home based there. Approaching from the north, just pay attention to Class Bravo airspace floors and stay under, or come in over Ft Collins and Longmont to stay east of it.
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Avoiding class B floors is one of the top reasons I prefer to go IFR in and out of major cities. :)
 
iamtheari said:
Avoiding class B floors is one of the top reasons I prefer to go IFR in and out of major cities. :)
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Understood - but if you look at the charts (and depending on how far east or west of north you're coming in from), the Class B are a non-event. Traffic in and out of BJC regularly fly under or parallel the west boundary. Almost like they were designed that way! :)

The western-most section of B has a floor of 10,000', and the next one to the east coming in from Greeley is 8,000' feet. Plenty of room.
 

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iamtheari said:
Can you give some numbers to explain your comment on prices? I came up with about $32 more cost to park and pump my own gas at TAC Air (which I've seen many past recommendations to use at KAPA) compared with Signature at KBJC. I probably missed something. I'm famous for doing that.
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When I was considering a flight to KAPA recently, I called both TAC Air and DJC.

TAC Air told me there is a $5 "infrastructure fee", $15/night tiedown and a $15 handling fee, which is waived with 10 gal fuel purchase. $150/night for hangar. FF shows them with $4.99 self-serve and $5.95/gal full-serve.
DJC said they had no ramp or parking fees and $15/night tiedown fee, but will waive one night with fuel purchase. I would IMAGINE you'd be hit with the "infrastructure fee" too. FF shows $6.25/gal full-serve.

So, assuming a say, 20 gal fuel purchase and 4 night stay, you'd pay $165 total at TAC air (assuming self-serve - it becomes $184, if full-serve) and $175 at DJC.

EDIT: Maybe if I read the quoted post more closely, I'd have seen you were comparing at APA to BJC airport - not Denver Jet Center. Sorry if I wasted your time here!
 
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A reminder to make an effort to connect with the Denver PoA crew. Every time I was in town, it was a lot of fun to hang out with them...
 
iamtheari said:
Avoiding class B floors is one of the top reasons I prefer to go IFR in and out of major cities. :)
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One advantage of living in the Denver area, we know the routes and how to avoid Class B and when it's practical to call and ask to be cleared into Class B. Yes, "when" is an important critieria. And where, too. On the edges, depending on weather, it's common to be cleared into Class B around here, no big deal.

For definitive pricing, call the FBOs at KAPA and KBJC and ask for all the info.
 
DrewG said:
When I was considering a flight to KAPA recently, I called both TAC Air and DJC.

TAC Air told me there is a $5 "infrastructure fee", $15/night tiedown and a $15 handling fee, which is waived with 10 gal fuel purchase. $150/night for hangar. FF shows them with $4.99 self-serve and $5.95/gal full-serve.
DJC said they had no ramp or parking fees and $15/night tiedown fee, but will waive one night with fuel purchase. I would IMAGINE you'd be hit with the "infrastructure fee" too. FF shows $6.25/gal full-serve.

So, assuming a say, 20 gal fuel purchase and 4 night stay, you'd pay $165 total at TAC air (assuming self-serve - it becomes $184, if full-serve) and $175 at DJC.

EDIT: Maybe if I read the quoted post more closely, I'd have seen you were comparing at APA to BJC airport - not Denver Jet Center. Sorry if I wasted your time here!
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No worries, I probably hadn't given Denver Jet Center enough consideration because of the higher nightly fees than TAC Air. Waiving one night with fuel purchase is helpful information.
 
AggieMike88 said:
A reminder to make an effort to connect with the Denver PoA crew. Every time I was in town, it was a lot of fun to hang out with them...
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It'll be a minimal effort, unfortunately, given the nature of the convention. But! If anyone wants to make the trek downtown or to points reachable by light rail from downtown, for a beer, I'm game. I have not been there recently and they closed my favorite place, Katie Mullen's, so I'd look to local expertise for a place to meet up. I did have a great Mexican supper on a rooftop in Littleton when I was there in 2014 and got curious about where the light rail would take me.

I'm flying in July 6 and out July 10. I'll figure out the evening commitments I have and post back here.
 
[QUOTE="iamtheari, post: 2546427, member: 27840]If anyone wants to make the trek downtown or to points reachable by light rail from downtown, for a beer, I'm game.[/QUOTE]

Game, good beer, downtown, close to light rail = Buckhorn Exchange.
 
You could also consider KFTG - it's farther out for sure. If you get there during the week and business hours and you purchase fuel, they will provide free transportation to Denver International and you can catch the light rail into downtown Denver. The folks are great and I think the fuel is cheaper. I am biased - I am based there. The tempo is a lot slower than KAPA.

Just throwing it out there :)
 
codeeno said:
You could also consider KFTG - it's farther out for sure. If you get there during the week and business hours and you purchase fuel, they will provide free transportation to Denver International and you can catch the light rail into downtown Denver. The folks are great and I think the fuel is cheaper. I am biased - I am based there. The tempo is a lot slower than KAPA.

Just throwing it out there :)
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Or if any of us based at FTG are around when you land, we'll probably drive you downtown.

What conference? The Dorm people? Trust me, we're more fun.

BTW, doesn't have to be the Buckhorn, lots of places downtown for a beer and more.
 
murphey said:
What conference? The Dorm people?
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It's a lawyer convention.
murphey said:
Trust me, we're more fun.
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You are undoubtedly correct.
murphey said:
Or if any of us based at FTG are around when you land, we'll probably drive you downtown.
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Maybe I can piggyback drinks-are-on-me with who-wants-to-pick-me-up-at-the-airport when I fly in on Friday. I am flexible on Friday so when I arrive is mostly a matter of the weather. I'm open to all airports if there are fair prices and reasonable ground transport options for a Friday arrival at 8:30 p.m. or so (in case I leave here after work) and Tuesday departure around 6:00 p.m.

This is one of those trips where GA works great for me. The operating costs and total travel time door to door of my plane are both within 10% of flying direct on United from the nearest commercial airport, plus I get to set my own schedule, and I don't absolutely have to be there at any particular time so weather delays or even a cancellation are not mission critical and I have lower sunk costs if I do have to cancel. But the point of saying that is that I don't mind an extra half hour on the ground in the Denver area if that's what it takes to pay for a ride downtown with beer instead of the Uber app.
 
I used FTG when I was there last year --- not the closest from the north, but it was easy to get in and out of and generally a very pleasant experience all around.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Game, good beer, downtown, close to light rail = Buckhorn Exchange.
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I seem to recall the Buckhorn Exchange has Colorado liquor license #1, and somebody from the wild west days used to frequent there (Buffalo Bill Cody?)

I remember going there once in the 90's and having dinner, and it was pretty awesome. Especially all the animal heads starting down at me as I ate, LOL. Pretty cool place.
 
I always fly into FTG and had a great luck with it.
 
luvflyin said:
They should have a Doctor Convention the same dates [insert favorite Doctor or Lawyer with airplane joke].
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They never have a doctor convention more than 30 yards from a golf course.
 
Thanks for this thread. Lots of good info here. Piggyback question- I need to visit kbjc for the first time next week. I will be arriving from the southwest/south around Walsenburg. Any tips from the locals on a route from there up to Jeffco, VFR? I have flown past Denver and Co Springs many times but never into the metro area.
 
there's a corridor running north and south through denver west of I-25 that makes it easy - and you can also ask for flight following and clearance into the Bravo

Dean
 
edo2000 said:
Thanks for this thread. Lots of good info here. Piggyback question- I need to visit kbjc for the first time next week. I will be arriving from the southwest/south around Walsenburg. Any tips from the locals on a route from there up to Jeffco, VFR? I have flown past Denver and Co Springs many times but never into the metro area.
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It's a shame most of us don't use paper charts anymore. On the back of the Terminal Area Charts (TACs) including the Denver Terminal, there's a detailed map of the VFR corridors - location, altitudes, etc. Of course there's no guarantee anyone is following the directions these days. But if you want to take a look, download the PDF here and check out the 3rd page:

http://aeronav.faa.gov/content/aeronav/tac_files/PDFs/Denver_TAC_89_P.pdf

Extra bonus - it also has the COS/PUB terminal areas.

Definitely keep your head on a swivel and don't depend on ADS-B or ATC for traffic. The SW corner of the map is a practice area for both KAPA and KBJC training. Make sure you're on flight following or IFR.
 
murphey said:
It's a shame most of us don't use paper charts anymore. On the back of the Terminal Area Charts (TACs) including the Denver Terminal, there's a detailed map of the VFR corridors - location, altitudes, etc. Of course there's no guarantee anyone is following the directions these days. But if you want to take a look, download the PDF here and check out the 3rd page:

http://aeronav.faa.gov/content/aeronav/tac_files/PDFs/Denver_TAC_89_P.pdf

Extra bonus - it also has the COS/PUB terminal areas.

Definitely keep your head on a swivel and don't depend on ADS-B or ATC for traffic. The SW corner of the map is a practice area for both KAPA and KBJC training. Make sure you're on flight following or IFR.
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You can get the VFR Flyway charts for all cities that have them in ForeFlight in the documents section. They’re all called “[City Name] FLY”...

Haven’t looked to see if you can get those in Garmin Pilot.

Meanwhile... I think BJC vs APA is a wash probably for downtown stays. FTG is an option also.

ALL THREE are horrid if your arrival time puts you in during rush hour as you’ll either be stuck in traffic on US36 and I-25 from BJC, on Arapahoe and I-25 from APA or I-70 where it always jams for a few miles at the elevated portion coming in from FTG.

In other words, avoid rush hour or expect a long Uber ride.

FTG will have plains style T-storms in the afternoon this time of year. As will APA sometimes. I’ll warn of hail and recommend a hangar and then all it will do is be hot. If I don’t warn, it’ll hail. Ha.

BJC gets somewhat different weather mostly behaving like Boulder. T-storms there roll off of the mountains, and aren’t plains style storms yet, but are squirrely.

Watch the density altitude of course in July... we had a record tying 105F a couple days ago and with an airport elevation of 5885,... you can see if that’s off the top of your POH’s density elevation chart yet or not. Ha.

Morning before it gets hot is always the nicest. But flying in from elsewhere, try to be in the metro area by 3-4 latest if you can. By 4 things will be developing heavily if they’re popping.

IFR, TRACON is great. They’ll get you to any of the relievers without any drama other than heavy training traffic at APA and BJC which will mostly be on the parallels anyway. Really even VFR they’re great. They probably won’t clear into the Bravo, but circumnavigating it is easy to the West or East.

Frankly there’s better landing options, East. And that VFR corridor has the absolute worst landing options for a single of the entire airspace. I actually prefer being closer to DEN under the lower ring just east of downtown if VFR because there’s golf courses all the way across town on that side of downtown, but many don’t like to do the 1000’ AGL thing right up against the Bravo surface area.

It’s a choice, and I find the VFR west corridor often is crazy busy with traffic, and nobody sneaks under the lower Bravo shelf east of downtown... you’re all alone over there doing the flight following thing... with many more places to land than the official west flyway corridor. Just thoughts. It’s tight being underneath there, so be on your altitude game if not IFR.

I wouldn’t go through the official VFR west corridor without flight following. It can go from no traffic to insane on that side in a split second. Everyone’s jammed under the ring and often head on, if they’re not playing well by the altitude rules.

No offense to the BJC based folks, but I usually go out of my way not to give Signature money anywhere, also. Just a pet peeve of mine. Can’t always avoid it, but if I was planning the flight and saw Signature as the only option at BJC, I’d fly to APA or FTG. That’s just me.
 
Just a thought....Uber or a cab at FTG can be an hour or more wait. Getting a ride to DEN from FTG then the light rail to downtown is usually easier. Or get a rent car.

Also, FTG shuts down at 9 pm MDT, tower and FBO so you may need to make arrangements in advance. 303-261-9100.

KAPA is 24 hr.
 
I finally flew in to KAPA after all these years of KFTG, mostly to be able to say that I actually did it. It was a total non-event. The field was almost deserted. The "monitor tower" instruction seemed like a big overkill, but anyway it wasn't anything requiring Capt. Sully.

Although everyone on PoA (including Murphey previously) recommended TACair, in the event they turned out to be uncooperative. Would not answer simple question, put me on hold for 20 minutes. They also stack fees. I went to the Jet Center. It was $227 for 4 nights and 25 gallons of 100LL. They let me park the Mooney at the remote tiedown, so there was no problem of them bending the front leg tower. I took Lyft to town.
 
iamtheari said:
Avoiding class B floors is one of the top reasons I prefer to go IFR in and out of major cities. :)
Click to expand...

Based upon the comments by local pilots, this seems like a prudent idea. While some said it's "easy", others mentioned congestion and training aircraft when flying VFR. It's a busy airspace.

What a local has become accustomed to may be challenging and unwieldy to someone traversing the area for the first time. It seems it would be much easier and safer to file IFR. YMMV.
 
Okay, I flew KSLC to BJC practically as a brand new pilot and it was a big nothingburger. Fun trip. Flew nearly to CYS and then south. While this was several years ago. I parked at BJC for maybe four nights and used a rental car. The folks at BJC were wonderful.

I always call ahead on long XC trips though. Talk personally to the FBO where I plan on visiting. Get pricing that way because FF and websites aren’t necessarily reliable. Same goes for planned fuel stops. Pick up the phone to ensure accuracy.
 
3393RP said:
Based upon the comments by local pilots, this seems like a prudent idea. While some said it's "easy", others mentioned congestion and training aircraft when flying VFR. It's a busy airspace.

What a local has become accustomed to may be challenging and unwieldy to someone traversing the area for the first time. It seems it would be much easier and safer to file IFR. YMMV.
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Which is great if you are IFR certified? When I flew in it was night so the sky was empty but when I flew out during the day the sky was empty. YMMV.

My philosophy is that you have a license, a pair of eyeballs and a radio. Fly and have fun.
 
woodchucker said:
Which is great if you are IFR certified? When I flew in it was night so the sky was empty but when I flew out during the day the sky was empty. YMMV.

My philosophy is that you have a license, a pair of eyeballs and a radio. Fly and have fun.
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I was commenting on the quoted post by the OP, not generalizing for everyone who might venture into the airspace. He holds an IFR endorsement, and I based my opinion on the remarks by local pilots and my own experience of operations in the DFW area.
 
3393RP said:
I was commenting on the quoted post by the OP, not generalizing for everyone who might venture into the airspace. He holds an IFR endorsement, and I based my opinion on the remarks by local pilots and my own experience of operations in the DFW area.
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Fair enough. I learned in SLC Bravo and you can get around fine without IFR. And my personal experience flying into the Denver metro area was the same.

But not being IFR (yet) I would not be able to comment on that added capability.
 
KBJC now has a second FBO selling fuel: Sheltair. I haven't been a customer so don't know their practices or fees, just an FYI.
 
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