Controller Communication

[spiderweb]

The ATC folks at Potomac are the best in the business, and have been great during the five years I have flown with them. I was wondering, though, about something I've noticed. Whenever I am flying to BWI, I never have any problems, but when I have transitioned, I have sometimes run into strange situations. For example, a few times traveling to KFDK from places like KRDG, KLNS, or recently from N57, the first controller seems not to have communicated my clearance to the Potomac folks. In several cases I have been queried as to why I wasn't going direct to Frederick when my clearance up to that point had been via airways, for example.

This last time I was cleared to Frederick via airways and the BAL VORTAC. This was not at all the way I filed, because it would take me out of the way and route me right through the center of Bravo. (Side note--I'm quite comfortable in Bravo, but I couldn't see the need for me to become an unnecessary FLIB for ATC.) Nevertheless I had obediently copied and read back. I flew and followed the clearance, but after being switched off to Potomac, on the airway to BAL I asked, "By the way, I've been cleared to Frederick via BAL, direct; destination is KFDK, would you like to change the clearance?" I asked this because not only for myself, but because I know how busy class-B BWI is, as I have about 300 hours of experience there. The controller responded with, "Yes, I'd like you direct Frederick at this time."

Another time, I was going from KESN to KFDK. Upon receiving "radar contact," I was on vectors (normal for ops in Class B, of course), but at one point asked to go direct BAL. This I did until I was about 3 miles from overflying the VORTAC. At that point I called up to ask them what they wanted me to do once crossing--continue with the original clearance (which would have necessitated a significant turn) or would I be staying on vectors after crossing the VORTAC? The very relaxed and pleasant controller said, "N12345 . . . I think I'd like you to . . . just go direct Frederick after crossing BAL."

I would appreciate the comments of the experienced IFR pilots and CFIIs on any of this. (And I'm sorry if this sounds convoluted--I'm sleepy, but wanted to ask about this before going off to bed! )

PS: I love the Potomac controllers because they are very professional and friendly with all pilots. I never feel like a FLIB. I have, however, heard very nasty pilots who chose to argue with the controllers over minor points. (For example, there was the airline pilot who got extremely angry at controller who told him he could proceed direct to the airport. He said--and I quote--"What the heck does that mean? How about some proper headings?" *sigh* )

 

[poadeleted20]

You keep referring to Class B issues, which implies VFR ops, but you also sound like you're talking about IFR ops as regards clearances from outside Potomac's airspace. The answers to your questions depend in part on whether you're talking about VFR or IFR ops.

 

[Everskyward]

I was wondering, though, about something I've noticed. Whenever I am flying to BWI, I never have any problems, but when I have transitioned, I have sometimes run into strange situations.

I don't have any insight about what one controller is supposed to pass on to the next one in a handoff but the situations you describe don't necessarily seem all that unusual to me. I rarely fly in Potomac's airspace but I fly IFR all the time.

The times when information seems like it has not been passed on from one controller to the next happens the most when there has been a routing change, when you are diverting for weather or when you are on an ATC assigned heading or airspeed restriction. They'll even occasionally ask, "what altitude were you assigned?" which for various reasons isn't the most comforting thing to hear. Sometimes ATC will ask you to inform the next controller yourself about what you are doing. If you don't like the route you were assigned there're nothing wrong with asking for something different, especially if the frequency is not too busy. At times it can seem like a negotiating process. Sometimes you'll get what you want and sometimes you won't.

I have, however, heard very nasty pilots who chose to argue with the controllers over minor points. (For example, there was the airline pilot who got extremely angry at controller who told him he could proceed direct to the airport. He said--and I quote--"What the heck does that mean? How about some proper headings?" *sigh* )

We could all do without these people...

 

[spiderweb]

You keep referring to Class B issues, which implies VFR ops, but you also sound like you're talking about IFR ops as regards clearances from outside Potomac's airspace. The answers to your questions depend in part on whether you're talking about VFR or IFR ops.

I'm sorry. I was talking about IFR ops. Of course, too, I know that on an IFR flight plan, class B doesn't matter in a way. But I also know that it is a PITA for Potomac to have transitions right over BWI. The original clearance from N57 was via BAL, which I thought Potomac might not like. It turns out I was right, but it also sounded like he thought I ought to know that. (I oughtn't to, though, because my last clearance was via BAL.)

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm sorry. I was talking about IFR ops. Of course, too, I know that on an IFR flight plan, class B doesn't matter in a way. But I also know that it is a PITA for Potomac to have transitions right over BWI. The original clearance from N57 was via BAL, which I thought Potomac might not like. It turns out I was right, but it also sounded like he thought I ought to know that. (I oughtn't to, though, because my last clearance was via BAL.)

Well, you might want to try to attend Potomac TRACON's next open house (if the loonies of Al Qaiada will leave us alone long engough to get the threatcon back down so they can reopen the doors), and try to learn why they route the way they do. But there really are reasons why they route folks over the BAL VOR, and they involve the inbound and outbound flows to/from BWI.

That said, there's no reason why Potomac should not know what route you were cleared for on an IFR handoff from Harrisburg. Next time it happens, call the Potomac Operations Manager (540-349-7541) when you land and discuss it, because there are serious safety implications in that failure.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Ben:
We just finished a full day class at Fort Worth Center called Opertion Rain Check. A full day with controllers explaining the system; time in a center simulator controlling traffic; time with controllers on the floor discussing how traffic is controlled and why routing is given. There are sooo many considerations!!

Best of all, it opens up dialogue amoungst us and we establish relationships. Do as Ron suggests. If the operations manager can't assist, call the NAFTA rep. I've called as Ron suggests several times; told them I was trying to do the best I could and really needed help in understanding something. Most of these folks really want to help and will look into things if they aren't going correctly. Best to call as soon after the flight as possible and tell them where you were, when and in what aircraft. I've even had them call me back a couple days later.

Best,

Dave

 

[spiderweb]

Well, you might want to try to attend Potomac TRACON's next open house (if the loonies of Al Qaiada will leave us alone long engough to get the threatcon back down so they can reopen the doors), and try to learn why they route the way they do. But there really are reasons why they route folks over the BAL VOR, and they involve the inbound and outbound flows to/from BWI.

That said, there's no reason why Potomac should not know what route you were cleared for on an IFR handoff from Harrisburg. Next time it happens, call the Potomac Operations Manager (540-349-7541) when you land and discuss it, because there are serious safety implications in that failure.

Thanks, Ron. I've copied that number. I can't say for sure that they didn't know on all occasions, but it did at least seem on a few occasions that they were surprised I wasn't direct Frederick.

 

[poadeleted20]

...it did at least seem on a few occasions that they were surprised I wasn't direct Frederick.

That's even more reason to call -- there may be some sort of systemic problem in getting handoffs from Harrisburg to Potomac which you have uncovered. If nobody points this out, the coordination between the two facilities never gets fixed.

 

[spiderweb]

That's even more reason to call -- there may be some sort of systemic problem in getting handoffs from Harrisburg to Potomac which you have uncovered. If nobody points this out, the coordination between the two facilities never gets fixed.

OK, I will call next time, then. As a relatively new IR pilot (just celebrated one year since the checkride), I tend to second-guess myself. I did keep a record of all these flights, though, and do go over them with my CFII from time to time.

 

[flyifrvfr]

I often fly a route from Harrisburg to Hagerstown to Salisbury IFR. The leg from KHGR to KSBY I fly is V268 EMI,BAL, Graco, direct. I overfly BWI at 5,000 feet and have never had a problem with hand-offs from Harrisburg, or Potomac. The next time you fly the route you describe, file and fly it at 5,000 feet and it will not be a problem.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

If the operations manager can't assist, call the NAFTA rep.

Hehe... I got confused about this for a moment, until I realized you meant NATCA (right?)

NAFTA = North American Free Trade Agreement, or at least I've never heard of a NAFTA in aviation.

NATCA = Nat'l Air Traffic Controllers Ass'n, which is a union but also has "safety reps" like Don Brown at ZTL who writes the excellent "Say Again" column on AvWeb.

 

[spiderweb]

I often fly a route from Harrisburg to Hagerstown to Salisbury IFR. The leg from KHGR to KSBY I fly is V268 EMI,BAL, Graco, direct. I overfly BWI at 5,000 feet and have never had a problem with hand-offs from Harrisburg, or Potomac. The next time you fly the route you describe, file and fly it at 5,000 feet and it will not be a problem.

That is EXACTLY how I fly when I transition BWI's airspace (starting from EMI). I never talk to Harrisburg in that event, though. Really, this post was just a question about a few incidences out of about 200. I don't think there is a bad problem we have to worry about.