Controlled airport without Class D airspace?

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DMD3.

Pre-takeoff checklist
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DMD3.
There is an airport in the North Florida area (can't remember the name; I can look it up later) that is controlled (appears in blue on a VFR sectional), yet there is no Class D airspace (dashed blue line) surrounding it, just Class E.
Would flying to it be just like flying to any other Class D airport, except there is no minimum distance before calling the tower?
 
Now I have announced on CTAF at a local airport to hear an AIR BOSS come back and ask for my intensions... That will get your attention on a saturday afternoon ...
 
The Airport Is Lake City Gateway. Identifier is LCQ.
 
DMD3. said:
There is an airport in the North Florida area (can't remember the name; I can look it up later) that is controlled (appears in blue on a VFR sectional), yet there is no Class D airspace (dashed blue line) surrounding it, just Class E.
Would flying to it be just like flying to any other Class D airport, except there is no minimum distance before calling the tower?
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Lake City. Establish contact with tower at least 4 NM out at or below 2,500 ft
 
brian];1609316 said:
Now I have announced on CTAF at a local airport to hear an AIR BOSS come back and ask for my intensions... That will get your attention on a saturday afternoon ...
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Air Boss as in you stepped in to an airshow (and I imagine a TFR) or accidentally stepped in to an uncharted-yet-controlled class e airport?
 
brian];1609316 said:
Now I have announced on CTAF at a local airport to hear an AIR BOSS come back and ask for my intensions... That will get your attention on a saturday afternoon ...
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It should, because it means you probably missed a NOTAM about the air show there.

In any event, for the OP, just treat it like any other tower-controlled airport operation and you'll be fine.
 
mkosmo said:
Air Boss as in you stepped in to an airshow (and I imagine a TFR) or accidentally stepped in to an uncharted-yet-controlled class e airport?
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Either that or the local "airport authority" is trying to run the show. Happens a lot around here at little local fly ins.
 
Alas, the FAA lied through the bloody teeth (not surprising) when they put out the alphabet rule making that the uncharted airspace of the ATAs wouldn't happen anymore. Lasted a few months before they had to amend the regs again to put them back because they can't be bothered to follow their own procedures.

Note that like the Airport Traffic Areas of old, while there are communications requirements for these fields, they are NOT controlled airspace in themselves.
 
MAKG1 said:
They are down to 700 feet. At least LCQ is. Class E.
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Yes, but only because there is also a transition area. The control tower doesn't make controlled airspace. A few of the rules change because their is no surface area of controlled airspace designated for an airport (like not being able to get IFR clearances that are in effect from the ground, no special VFR, etc....).
I really miss the term "control zone." "Lateral boundaries of surface area of controlled airspace designated for an airport" doesn't have the same ring.
 
flyingron said:
Alas, the FAA lied through the bloody teeth (not surprising) when they put out the alphabet rule making that the uncharted airspace of the ATAs wouldn't happen anymore. Lasted a few months before they had to amend the regs again to put them back because they can't be bothered to follow their own procedures.

Note that like the Airport Traffic Areas of old, while there are communications requirements for these fields, they are NOT controlled airspace in themselves.
Click to expand...

I can't find that they put the ATA's back. They did establish the communication requirement in 91.126 (d) and 91.127 (c). They didn't reestablish the 1000 and 3 weather requirement. Unless I'm missing something, you can operate at LCQ, a tower controlled airport, in the daytime below 700 AGL, Clear of Clouds with one mile visibility. I'll bet that was an oversight and not the intent.
 
See Luv, you don't know what an Airport Traffic Area was. Airport Traffic Areas were NOT, and I repeat this again since you've missed it the other times I have said it in this thread, NOT CONTROLLED AIRSPACE in themselves. Most of them were colocated with CONTROL ZONES (a very nice term that for some reason the FAA has replaced with the unwieldy "surface area of controlled airspace designated for an airport"). It was rare but you could find control towers outside of control zones. An airport traffic area not being controlled airspace didn't have any weather requirements PERIOD.

An operating tower in the pre-alphabet airspace made an airport traffic area (communications requirement for landing at the towered airport or transitioning through).
This concept went away with the initial alphabet airspace. Towered fields were always supposed to be inside class D controlled airspace. ATA's were history for a while until the concept of was restored by 91.126(c) and 91.127(c).
 
I know that they weren't controlled airspace even though almost all of them were in controlled airspace. I have no misunderstanding of what an Airport Traffic Area was, what a Control Zone was and what their relation to each other was or their relationship to the current Class D's and Surface Areas. I also know that FAR 91 prohibited landing or departing at the airport for which the ATA was established when the weather was less than 1000 and 3. That specific 1000 and 3 requirement was there to cover the few Airports with Towers that weren't in Controlled Airspace.
 
I also know that FAR 91 prohibited landing or departing at the airport for which the ATA was established when the weather was less than 1000 and 3. That specific 1000 and 3 requirement was there to cover the few Airports with Towers that weren't in Controlled Airspace.
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https://books.google.com/books?id=C...LKCYKHWqfBosQ6AEIPTAD#v=snippet&q=91.&f=false

Prove it. Here's a copy of the 1992 FARs. Show me where it says anything about weather minimums at airports with control towers other than just saying VFR minimums which are defined in terms of being in controlled airspace or not without regard to there being a tower.

The 1000 and 3 thing you keep mentioning is the Control Zone requirement.
 
Years ago I was working a mobile tower at an airport that is normally uncontrolled. This particular day there was an airshow hence the mobile tower being brought in. Air show notam hours began and I noticed a Cub out to the east. It flew counter clockwise all the way around the airport and landed on a runway (36 maybe, don't recall). The whole time I was giving him a light gun signal which he obviously never saw. Nothing was flying for the airshow yet so he really didn't get in the way. Watched the FAA guy walk over to the Cub as he parked, they have a conversation, and the fed handed the Cub pilot a piece of paper (violation?). Poor Cub pilot sat on one of his tires for quite awhile. I wasn't going to say anything but unfortunately the FAA was there.
 
I'm pretty sure KTVL (South Lake Tahoe) was in the same boat, towered but with no Class D when the tower was still operational. I just treated it the same as any other Class D airport.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I'm pretty sure KTVL (South Lake Tahoe) was in the same boat, towered but with no Class D when the tower was still operational. I just treated it the same as any other Class D airport.
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I have an A/FD from 1996 that shows it as class D.
 
The Lake City tower is actually run by HAECO which is the maintenance facility there that does C-checks and other large maintenance tasks on large jets. HAECO actually controls and maintains all the taxiways, parking aprons, and run up areas.
 
MAKG1 said:
They are down to 700 feet. At least LCQ is. Class E.
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Nope, that's a transition area. It is only based on the fact there's an approach there, it has nothing to do with the airport traffic area (tower).

In the old scheme of things you had the positive control area, continental control area, you had airspace bounding the victor airways, you had transition areas around airports with approaches, you had control zones (airports with approaches with weather observers), and then Terminal Control Areas (and later ARSAs). These were your controlled airspace.

A tower made an Airport Traffic Area. It was NOT controlled airspace in it's own though as noted many had control zones as well (because the tower controllers make great weather observers) but sometimes transition areas.
 
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flyingron said:
https://books.google.com/books?id=C...LKCYKHWqfBosQ6AEIPTAD#v=snippet&q=91.&f=false

Prove it. Here's a copy of the 1992 FARs. Show me where it says anything about weather minimums at airports with control towers other than just saying VFR minimums which are defined in terms of being in controlled airspace or not without regard to there being a tower.

The 1000 and 3 thing you keep mentioning is the Control Zone requirement.
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I can't prove it because I was wrong when I said FAR91 required 1000 and 3. The reference to "basic VFR" is still there where it gives the requirements to land NORDO. My interpretation of the term "Basic VFR" was a 1000 and 3. My bad, I have no authority to interpret it. If "WEATHER CONDITIONS are at or above Basic VFR weather minimums" is the same thing as basic visibility and cloud clearance requirements I'm not sure. My recollection from back in the days before the ICAO Alphabet Soup Airspace began was that the Tower could not authorize VFR landings and takeoffs when the reported weather was less than a 1000 and 3 (also a requirement via FAR91 for Control Zones[surface area]). If you can find an old Air Traffic Handbook from back then like you found the FAR I'd appreciate it. It's 7110.65.
 
The oldest I have is the H version which is after the airspace. I should have an E on CDROM somewhere but darned if I know where that is. Odd it would say anything about that for ATAs. ATAs weren't required to have weather observers. Where is the tower going to get this 1000-3 observation without a control zone?
 
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flyingron said:
The oldest I have is the H version which is after the airspace. I should have an E on CDROM somewhere but darned if I know where that is. Odd it would say anything about that for ATAs. ATAs weren't required to have weather observers. Where is the tower going to get this 1000-3 observation without a control zone?
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What I remember is that tower just couldn't authorize landings and take offs when it's less than a 1000 and 3. No reference to either Control Zone or ATA. Tower controllers can be authorized weather observers. It's called LAWRS or something close to that, the L is limited. Basically just ceiling and visibility. There are more official observations being done by tower controllers nowadays than before because the on airport FSS is becoming a thing of the past. More of these G towers seem to be popping up. We should call them and see what they have to say about it.
 
I didn't say a tower controller COULDN'T be a weather observer. In fact, prior to AWOS and the like they usually were. However, it would be strange to write that a tower controller has to rely on a weather observation that isn't necessarily there. An ATA doesn't require a weather observer, a control zone does.

Your recollection is neither supported by the archival copy of the regulations nor the archival copy of the Air Traffic Control order. I don't know what you intend me to learn from calling anybody other than the fact that you can't admit you are wrong.
 
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