Control Tower Closure Info

PilotAlan said:
Because they truly didn't believe the world could continue to function without them.

Just like many bureaucratic agencies today. Which brings it around 360* to the OP, where the FAA is threatening to close or cut back lots of towers, and the reaction from many of us is "meh".

And their greatest fear is (as expressed by some senior government executives) that the citizenry will realize that the government CAN be cut, and substantially, without significant impact.
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Agreed.........:yes::yes:
 
Looks like KOXR is closing April 7. As of now KCMA is staying open. For how much longer........who knows.
 
There is much discussion around towers closing, but is there consideration for this impacting other value add functions like Flight Following? This would be a real loss to VFR pilots if this "as available" service became less available.
 
PilotAlan said:
Because they truly didn't believe the world could continue to function without them, so they couldn't actually BE fired.

Just like many bureaucratic agencies today. Which brings it around 360* to the OP, where the FAA is threatening to close or cut back lots of towers, and the reaction from many of us is "meh".

And their greatest fear is (as expressed by some senior government executives) that the citizenry will realize that the government CAN be cut, and substantially, without significant impact.
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And BTW, this is aviation-related and not SZ, because we can expect further cutbacks to be made to highly visible functions (towers, safety inspectors, or the like) and not to administrative and headquarters functions, so that the public impacts can be maximized.
Otherwise, the public will realize that we CAN actually cut, as described above.

See "White House tours suspended due to sequester" or "FBI Agents to be furloughed" as examples where cuts are made in very public ways, rather than behind the curtain.
 
N801BH said:
I am not sure Reagan is the main topic here.............

The unions represent ALL their dues paying members..... The unions clearly know the rules and that ALL their members signed a document swearing they would NEVER strike....................

I guess the 50,000 dollar question is.........:dunno:

Why in the hell did the union sanction the illegal strike against the US government....:dunno::rolleyes:
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Because they understood, "They can't fire us all!"
 
Mlandy said:
There is much discussion around towers closing, but is there consideration for this impacting other value add functions like Flight Following? This would be a real loss to VFR pilots if this "as available" service became less available.
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The real headache here in SoCal will be the loss of IFR Tower Enroute Control (TEC) routes. Everyone at the airports in SoCal with towers that will be closed will have to call in for release times, and combined with having to wait for inbound IFR to cancel before release, this will slow IFR travel in SoCal greatly.
 
N801BH said:
I am not sure Reagan is the main topic here.............

The unions represent ALL their dues paying members..... The unions clearly know the rules and that ALL their members signed a document swearing they would NEVER strike....................

I guess the 50,000 dollar question is.........:dunno:

Why in the hell did the union sanction the illegal strike against the US government....:dunno::rolleyes:
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That's not my topic, but you're obviously free to pursue it.

My topic is that some of the people who revere Ronald Reagan talk as if unions are always bad, which is ironic in light of the fact that Reagan spent about as much time in union leadership roles as he did in the White House. It seems like a sweeping assumption to say that his enforcing the law against ATC strikes meant that he necessarily became anti-union in general.
 
Reagen also spent his youth as a socialist/communist sympathizer. He seems to have gotten over that as he got older and wiser. So I'm not sure what relevance this union talk has.

Palmpilot said:
That's not my topic, but you're obviously free to pursue it.

My topic is that some of the people who revere Ronald Reagan talk as if unions are always bad, which is ironic in light of the fact that Reagan spent about as much time in union leadership roles as he did in the White House. It seems like a sweeping assumption to say that his enforcing the law against ATC strikes meant that he necessarily became anti-union in general.
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SoCal TEC is probably the best answer I've heard so far for not closing some of these towers. That's a pretty isolated thing. While the tower provides a little bit of flexibility with getting multiple IFRs into the CZ, it doesn't really do anything for clearances. The towers still ave to pick up the phone and call approach (and at HEF they have to do it for the VFRs). The tower frequency might as well just be answered by Potomac TRACON.
 
azure said:
+1

Apart from improving operations safety at crowded fields, if IFR I would MUCH rather go into a towered airport than one with no operating tower.

If conditions are VFR then it doesn't matter, I'll cancel in the air, but if a go-around would put me in the clouds, I'm keeping my IFR clearance all the way to the ground.

At home base (no tower), canceling IFR on the ground means pulling off the runway, shutting down the engine, and calling ATC on my cellphone.

I'd much rather let them do it for me -- and in exchange for that and other services, the "hassle" of talking to them on the radio is small potatoes.

Just MHO.
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If the FAA has any sense (yeah I know...) they will leave the ground control radio hooked up to a nearby ATC facility for clearances at any tower that's closed. This is what they do at most if not all part time towers after hours.
 
Tarheel Pilot said:
http://www.hickoryrecord.com/indepe...cle_2fdc8ba4-8b2c-11e2-9696-001a4bcf6878.html

For a second since you quoted the Hickory paper, we were talking about the Hickory tower which is a relic from better times at the airport (when they had air service). JQF is an odd ball. Most of the time it's a sleepy little place tucked under a major class B. However several times a year it's a hopping place the three weekends NASCAR cup races.

Still there are lots of tracks that get this kind of traffic that are untowered and just get STMP put in place. The bigger management issue is where to park everybody (if you've been to SIF or MTV during a race, you'd know).
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gismo said:
If the FAA has any sense (yeah I know...) they will leave the ground control radio hooked up to a nearby ATC facility for clearances at any tower that's closed. This is what they do at most if not all part time towers after hours.
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We have that and we don't even have a tower. State College's airport had a direct link to ZNY on the ground there long before they ever had a tower (and they run special traffic management every home football game.

Of course in the fine strategy NY and PA (haven't heard from NJ on this) legislators are duking it out to figure out where to build the new consolidated NY Center / New York TRACON facility.

They could easily replace HEF's tower with a link to PCT. They have to get PCT's release on every IFR departure and a code from them for every VFR departure anyhow.
 
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flyingron said:
Tarheel Pilot said:
http://www.hickoryrecord.com/indepe...cle_2fdc8ba4-8b2c-11e2-9696-001a4bcf6878.html

For a second since you quoted the Hickory paper, we were talking about the Hickory tower which is a relic from better times at the airport (when they had air service). JQF is an odd ball. Most of the time it's a sleepy little place tucked under a major class B. However several times a year it's a hopping place the three weekends NASCAR cup races.

Still there are lots of tracks that get this kind of traffic that are untowered and just get STMP put in place. The bigger management issue is where to park everybody (if you've been to SIF or MTV during a race, you'd know).
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They also have 30+ other weekends where a fair amount of traffic moves in and out getting to the track of the week. Not saying that justifies keeping the tower open.

Actually I'd bet the race teams could fund that tower operation fairly easily.
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Here's what I don't get about KJQF. I thought if the tower close at KJQF it would become a Class G airspace from Class D. So why would KCLT's tower be responsible for traffic at KJQF?
 
I am at KOWD, and as a student pilot it is going to be hard to find practice somewhere with a tower now.
 
Tarheel Pilot said:
Here's what I don't get about KJQF. I thought if the tower close at KJQF it would become a Class G airspace from Class D. So why would KCLT's tower be responsible for traffic at KJQF?
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That refers to IFR traffic and Charlotte approach control.
 
Hi,

I can't believe the list in Florida ... !! :mad2:

APF Naples Municipal Naples FL
BCT Boca Raton Boca Raton FL
CRG Craig Municipal Jacksonville FL
EVB New Smyrna Beach Municipal New Smyrna Beach FL
FMY Page Field Fort Myers FL
FPR St. Lucie County International Fort Pierce FL
HWO North Perry Hollywood FL
ISM Kissimmee Gateway Orlando FL
LAL Lakeland Linder Regional Lakeland FL
LEE Leesburg International Leesburg FL
OCF Ocala International-Jim Taylor Field Ocala FL
OMN Ormond Beach Municipal Ormond Beach FL
OPF Opa-Locka Executive Miami FL
ORL Orlando Executive Orlando FL
PGD Punta Gorda Punta Gorda FL
SGJ Northeast Florida Regional St. Augustine FL
SPG Albert Whitted St. Petersburg FL
SUA Witham Field Stuart FL
TIX Space Coast Regional Titusville FL
VQQ Cecil Jacksonville FL

Regards
John
 
benb172 said:
I am at KOWD, and as a student pilot it is going to be hard to find practice somewhere with a tower now.
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so you will be able to get your ticket that much faster with less sitting around waiting on the ground
 
Hi,

When will this madness end? In 4 years maybe or the first attributed fatal?

AVWEB said:
The FAA was expected to announce today which control towers will close due to federal budget cuts, but now that announcement has been delayed until Friday, March 22. The FAA plans to eliminate funding for 189 contract towers at small airports, but operators of those airports were invited to make a case to the FAA why those measures would "adversely affect the national interest." Last Friday, FAA chief operating officer J. David Grizzle said the FAA has "received a very large number of responses" and needs more time to "review comprehensively the submission on behalf of each airport."


No change was announced for the actual shutdown schedule. On April 7, 173 towers are expected to close, with 16 more to shut down on Sept. 30. The FAA has closed its request for comments on the closures.
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So, how is this going to affect the towered field landings when the nearest control tower is hundreds of miles away for students?
 
benb172 said:
I am at KOWD, and as a student pilot it is going to be hard to find practice somewhere with a tower now.
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What about Hanscom, Beverly, Lawrence, New Bedford, Quonset Nashua....what else are they closing besides OWD?

Edit...just looked at the whole list of proposed closures.....assuming they close all the towers on the list, Hanscom (BED) will still be open. You can also go to PVD or OQU for your tower exposure.
 
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You guys still think these towers are going to be closed?

This is political theater, people. Obama and the Dems aren't going to risk losing some of their highest-paid, most visible supporters. Here is my prediction:

1. Some truly lame towers will be closed, permanently. We can all name half a dozen completely inexplicable towers that could go away tomorrow without harm. This is good.

2. The rest may be closed for a few weeks, while Obama let's the hue and cry rise to a crescendo. Close calls will be documented. Pilots will be interviewed.

3. At it's peak, if Congress hasn't caved in, Obama will sweep in with executive orders, in the name of safety. There will be lots of flags and children behind him as he signs the order, saving the day.

4. All controllers will receive back pay, having been given a generous paid vacation.

I hope I'm wrong, but I give it 70/30 that this is how it goes down.
 
Jay Honeck said:
You guys still think these towers are going to be closed?

3. At it's peak, if Congress hasn't caved in, Obama will sweep in with executive orders, in the name of safety. There will be lots of flags and children behind him as he signs the order, saving the day.
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That line would be funny if it wasn't so true...

:mad2:
 
Jay Honeck said:
You guys still think these towers are going to be closed?

This is political theater, people. Obama and the Dems aren't going to risk losing some of their highest-paid, most visible supporters. Here is my prediction:

1. Some truly lame towers will be closed, permanently. We can all name half a dozen completely inexplicable towers that could go away tomorrow without harm. This is good.

2. The rest may be closed for a few weeks, while Obama let's the hue and cry rise to a crescendo. Close calls will be documented. Pilots will be interviewed.

3. At it's peak, if Congress hasn't caved in, Obama will sweep in with executive orders, in the name of safety. There will be lots of flags and children behind him as he signs the order, saving the day.

4. All controllers will receive back pay, having been given a generous paid vacation.

I hope I'm wrong, but I give it 70/30 that this is how it goes down.
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I'd take that bet since unlike you I actually, you know, understand civics and such.

They may not be closed in the end but it won't happen the way you think.
 
Jay Honeck said:
You guys still think these towers are going to be closed?

This is political theater, people. Obama and the Dems aren't going to risk losing some of their highest-paid, most visible supporters. Here is my prediction:

1. Some truly lame towers will be closed, permanently. We can all name half a dozen completely inexplicable towers that could go away tomorrow without harm. This is good.

2. The rest may be closed for a few weeks, while Obama let's the hue and cry rise to a crescendo. Close calls will be documented. Pilots will be interviewed.

3. At it's peak, if Congress hasn't caved in, Obama will sweep in with executive orders, in the name of safety. There will be lots of flags and children behind him as he signs the order, saving the day.

4. All controllers will receive back pay, having been given a generous paid vacation.

I hope I'm wrong, but I give it 70/30 that this is how it goes down.
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I seriously doubt that any president has time to micromanage multiple huge bureacracies to that extent. Considering the small number of potential votes involved, GA is just not that high on any president's list of priorities.
 
John Young said:
Hi,

When will this madness end? In 4 years maybe or the first attributed fatal?
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By "madness" i assume you mean the racking up of debt and the inability to ever cut any government budget by even the slightest amount?
 
JHW said:
By "madness" i assume you mean the racking up of debt and the inability to ever cut any government budget by even the slightest amount?
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Hi,

My approach speed is slowed down to 60 mph.

At what speeds are the jets and turbine props approaching?

We know about the required two way contact in controlled airspace. But with no tower, an off freq. small plane could lead to a disaster.

How do these fast-flying pilots feel about landing at unmanned fields?

I am based at an unmanned field but we fly the smaller stuff and the speed differentials are not that great.

Have a look at the 20 towers on the radar in Florida. :mad2:

Regards
John
 
John Young said:
Hi,

My approach speed is slowed down to 60 mph.

At what speeds are the jets and turbine props approaching?

We know about the required two way contact in controlled airspace. But with no tower, an off freq. small plane could lead to a disaster.

How do these fast-flying pilots feel about landing at unmanned fields?

I am based at an unmanned field but we fly the smaller stuff and the speed differentials are not that great.

Have a look at the 20 towers on the radar in Florida. :mad2:

Regards
John
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Same as it works everywhere else. I've been the nordo aeronca sharing a pattern with a gulfstream, and I've been the 4-engine turboprop sharing the pattern with nordo cropdusters flying nonstandard patterns. It works. You're talking a lot about your feelings and could-have type things. That's not relevant.
 
John Young said:
Hi,

My approach speed is slowed down to 60 mph.

At what speeds are the jets and turbine props approaching?

We know about the required two way contact in controlled airspace. But with no tower, an off freq. small plane could lead to a disaster.

How do these fast-flying pilots feel about landing at unmanned fields?

I am based at an unmanned field but we fly the smaller stuff and the speed differentials are not that great.

Have a look at the 20 towers on the radar in Florida. :mad2:

Regards
John
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Yep understand your logic completely, my home field is KLAL (Lakeland Linder) which is on the Florida list for possible tower closure.

Pretty much a daily occurrence of Biz jet traffic, turbo props, GA traffic arriving at the repair/avionics shops based at the airport and 2 flight schools operating out of there.... great mix for possible non towered operations ! :nono:

The ATC guys are not currently sat there with their feet up drinking coffee all day, they earn every penny of their salary throughout their shift.
 
Man there's a young lady at Linder that almost gave me a heart attack. Three weeks ago I was there droping off a friend. She's at the FBO behind the counter. I could just stare at her all day long. Long dark hair, beautiful face and a body that made my eyes water. Linder is busy as hell for them to close that tower.
 
alland said:
Yep understand your logic completely, my home field is KLAL (Lakeland Linder) which is on the Florida list for possible tower closure.

Pretty much a daily occurrence of Biz jet traffic, turbo props, GA traffic arriving at the repair/avionics shops based at the airport and 2 flight schools operating out of there.... great mix for possible non towered operations ! :nono:
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There are plenty of non-towered airports out there with scheduled airline ops, private jets, turboprops, and piston flight school ops.
Because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

LAL only averages 208 operations per day.
KVDF (Tampa Exec, formerly Vandenberg) averages more than that, with only two runways (and it averaged more than that back when it only had one runway).

Peter O. Knight averages over 180 a day, with two intersecting runways, abuts MacDill AFB's surface area, in 1 mile from TPA's Bravo surface area, and has medevac, news, and traffic choppers in and out all the time.
With NO tower.
 
PilotAlan said:
There are plenty of non-towered airports out there with scheduled airline ops, private jets, turboprops, and piston flight school ops.
Because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

LAL only averages 208 operations per day.
KVDF (Tampa Exec, formerly Vandenberg) averages more than that, with only two runways (and it averaged more than that back when it only had one runway).

Peter O. Knight averages over 180 a day, with two intersecting runways, abuts MacDill AFB's surface area, in 1 mile from TPA's Bravo surface area, and has medevac, news, and traffic choppers in and out all the time.
With NO tower.
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Home drome AVQ, 303 ops/day, no tower.
 
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