Contact Vs Visual Approach

TheGolfPilot

TheGolfPilot

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Golfpilot
Tonight I was inbound to Concord from Fresno and I asked for a contact approach. They gave it to me and it all worked out dandy. When I got on the ground the controller asked me why ask for the contact approach when I could just have the visual approach. I told him I didn't want to get vectored around an extra 5 minutes to get an intercept to a runway and I didn't want to cancel and lose tracking for family watching on flightaware. He didn't seem to understand the vectoring part. Am I wrong that a visual approach has to be within a certain intercept? Can someone get a visual approach from any direction without getting vectored? I guess I don't fully understand the difference.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
Am I wrong that a visual approach has to be within a certain intercept? Can someone get a visual approach from any direction without getting vectored? I guess I don't fully understand the difference.
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1. Answer to both of those is yes(unless parallel runway ops are taking place)

Visual Approach
-Proceed visually and clear of clouds
-Must have airport or preceding aircraft in sight(if not you can still get the approach, but ATC will still be responsible for separation and wake turb. separation)
-ATC can initiate it
-Weather at the airport must be at least 1000 and 3(however the ATC handbook says 500 above the MVA/MIA)
-It is an IFR procedure conducted in VMC
-Cloud clearance requirements of 91.155 do not apply
-Weather reporting at the airport doesn’t have to be available if the controller has reasonable assurance that the weather is 1,000 and 3
-Only time they are required to give you a certain angle to final is when parallel runway operations are taking place and the runways are between 2,500 and 4,300 feet apart to prevent you from overshooting

Contact Approach
-Basically a visual but with lower weather minimums(basically scud running)
-Must remain clear of clouds, 1 mile flight visibility, and can reasonably expect to continue to the airport in those conditions
-The approach must be specially asked for by the pilot. Controller can not ask you to do one.
-Ground visibility at the airport must be 1 mile
-The airport must have an instrument approach procedure available
-You are responsible for obstruction clearance
-Because it is expected that you will climb and descend a bit to maintain obstruction or cloud clearances, you will more than likely be cleared for it at or below a certain altitude.

Only time I could see doing one is if you are getting vectored for a standard IAP and you can see the airport. Instead of getting vectored all over hells half acre, and the contact approach criteria is met, you can just ask for that and go right to the airport.
 
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Gucci Pilot said:
1. Answer to both of those is yes(unless parallel runway ops are taking place)

Visual Approach
-Proceed visually and clear of clouds
-Must have airport or preceding aircraft in sight(if not you can still get the approach, but ATC will still be responsible for separation and wake turb. separation)
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You fly IFR more than I do so honest question: how do you get a Visual Approach without the airport or preceding aircraft in sight?
 
If you don't have the preceding aircraft in sight, ATC will still be responsible for your separation and wake turb. avoidance until you have him in sight, but you can still be cleared the approach. If you are too far out to see the airport you will be told to "expect the visual approach" and once you have the airport in sight they will "clear" you for the approach.
 
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Clark1961 said:
You fly IFR more than I do so honest question: how do you get a Visual Approach without the airport or preceding aircraft in sight?
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You don't. You must report the airport or the preceding aircraft in sight before the approach clearance can be issued.
 
I get cleared for a visual quite often. It's no big deal. You usually have the airport in sight. If it looks like you may have to dodge a cloud or two I ask for a contact approach.
 
Yep. I usually get cleared for a visual approach after I call the field in sight. Sometimes I will then get cleared for a visual approach with "follow the XXX" aircraft attached, telling me that I am #2. The fun part is that sometimes that's an airliner 8-10 miles out while I'm on a wide, 3-mile downwind.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
Am I wrong that a visual approach has to be within a certain intercept?
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Yes, you are wrong.

Can someone get a visual approach from any direction without getting vectored?
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Yes, one can, depending on the quantity and flow of traffic.

And you can still dodge clouds to get to the airport on a visual -- in fact, you must, since once cleared for the visual, you must remain clear of clouds. So, if you can see the airport (or the preceding aircraft), you can still fly a visual approach even if there are clouds around, but you have to dodge them. And that's the same for contact approaches -- you must remain clear of clouds, but you can maneuver to avoid them. The biggest difference is that with a contact, you don't have to have anything in particular in sight as long as you have ground contact and can navigate to the airport visually (although it may not be real smart to do it that way even if it's legal).
 
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Ron Levy said:
Yes, you are wrong.

Yes, one can, depending on the quantity and flow of traffic.

And you can still dodge clouds to get to the airport on a visual -- in fact, you must, since once cleared for the visual, you must remain clear of clouds. So, if you can see the airport (or the preceding aircraft), you can still fly a visual approach even if there are clouds around, but you have to dodge them. And that's the same for contact approaches -- you must remain clear of clouds, but you can maneuver to avoid them. The biggest difference is that with a contact, you don't have to have anything in particular in sight as long as you have ground contact and can navigate to the airport visually (although it may not be real smart to do it that way even if it's legal).
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I was most thankful for the Contact Approach when flying to Pensacola, and being vectored for the ILS (I was something like fifth for the field) - the vectoring was going to take me through a freakin' wall of water off the coastline.

I had not gotten the field in sight, because when I passed abeam, it was under a layer (had something like 1,200' ceiling reported), so I could not report "field in sight" to get cleared for the visual, but I had great surface contact a couple of miles past, over the water, and when I told Approach I could accept a Contact Approach, he could not clear me fast enough! I racked her around, threw out gear and flaps, was cleared to land instantamooneously, and watched all the hapless Navy students and IPs as they arrived from their Not Very Fun approaches while I loaded up the rental car.

It was a perfect Contact Approach scenario - I saved stress and time for me, and work for the controllers. But remember, you have to ask for it. Don't believe I'd have done that if I had not been reasonably familiar with the layout.
 
Do you need to have the airport in sight or they just keep vectoring you until you do with a visual approach? If thats the case my contact approach really did make a difference. Between me and my airport there are some small hills that would make vectoring that way an impossible descent, from where I was the airport wasn't really seeable. When I asked for the contact I turned right to the airport and descended below vectoring altitude over those hills, knowing the area really well I knew exactly where the airport was just didn't have visual on it yet. Is that correct? Or is that a visual approach too
 
If you can see the field, and tell the controller so, he or she can (and, traffic permitting, usually will) clear you for the visual; if you can't see the airport, but you can see sufficient terrain & features to safely navigate to the field by visual reference, you can request the Contact Approach.

No field in sight, no Visual.

Over-simplified, but essentially how it works.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
1. Answer to both of those is yes(unless parallel runway ops are taking place)

Visual Approach
-Proceed visually and clear of clouds
-Must have airport or preceding aircraft in sight(if not you can still get the approach, but ATC will still be responsible for separation and wake turb. separation)
-ATC can initiate it
-Weather at the airport must be at least 1000 and 3(however the ATC handbook says 500 above the MVA/MIA)
-It is an IFR procedure conducted in VMC
-Cloud clearance requirements of 91.155 do not apply
-Weather reporting at the airport doesn’t have to be available if the controller has reasonable assurance that the weather is 1,000 and 3
-Only time they are required to give you a certain angle to final is when parallel runway operations are taking place and the runways are between 2,500 and 4,300 feet apart to prevent you from overshooting

Contact Approach
-Basically a visual but with lower weather minimums(basically scud running)
-Must remain clear of clouds, 1 mile flight visibility, and can reasonably expect to continue to the airport in those conditions
-The approach must be specially asked for by the pilot. Controller can not ask you to do one.
-Ground visibility at the airport must be 1 mile
-The airport must have an instrument approach procedure available
-You are responsible for obstruction clearance
-Because it is expected that you will climb and descend a bit to maintain obstruction or cloud clearances, you will more than likely be cleared for it at or below a certain altitude.

Only time I could see doing one is if you are getting vectored for a standard IAP and you can see the airport. Instead of getting vectored all over hells half acre, and the contact approach criteria is met, you can just ask for that and go right to the airport.
Click to expand...

The controller handbook does not say the weather must be 500 above the MVA/MVA to clear an aircraft for a Visual Approach. It does say it must be 500 above to vector an aircraft for a Visual Approach. The intent is that before initiating it, there is going to be a reasonable chance that the aircraft will get into weather conditions where it can see the airport or another aircraft and proceed visually to the airport. if the ATIS is advertising the ILS or whatever approaches in use, the controller says fly heading.... Vector to the localizer and asks you to report the airport or another airplane in sight and expect a Visual Approach, this is what is happening. The weather is not 500 above the MVA/MIA but there are breaks in the cloud cover that are allowing Visuals to work, but keep that Aproach Plate out and/or loaded and be ready to do it if this doesn't work.
 
SCCutler said:
If you can see the field, and tell the controller so, he or she can (and, traffic permitting, usually will) clear you for the visual; if you can't see the airport, but you can see sufficient terrain & features to safely navigate to the field by visual reference, you can request the Contact Approach.

No field in sight, no Visual.

Over-simplified, but essentially how it works.
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That's how I was taught. The part about the contact approach requiring an instrument approach to the field does come into play every now and then. Fortunately Wyoming Mountain VFR rules are mostly one mile and clear of the clouds (and ya better know where ya are).
 
SCCutler said:
I was most thankful for the Contact Approach when flying to Pensacola, and being vectored for the ILS (I was something like fifth for the field) - the vectoring was going to take me through a freakin' wall of water off the coastline.

I had not gotten the field in sight, because when I passed abeam, it was under a layer (had something like 1,200' ceiling reported), so I could not report "field in sight" to get cleared for the visual, but I had great surface contact a couple of miles past, over the water, and when I told Approach I could accept a Contact Approach, he could not clear me fast enough! I racked her around, threw out gear and flaps, was cleared to land instantamooneously, and watched all the hapless Navy students and IPs as they arrived from their Not Very Fun approaches while I loaded up the rental car.

It was a perfect Contact Approach scenario - I saved stress and time for me, and work for the controllers. But remember, you have to ask for it. Don't believe I'd have done that if I had not been reasonably familiar with the layout.
Click to expand...

That is a perfect scenario. You requested it, got it and got the airplane down without flying all over the place hunting and pecking for the airport. A Contact Approach "gone wrong" can be a controllers worst nightmare if there is a lot of other traffic
 
TheGolfPilot said:
Do you need to have the airport in sight or they just keep vectoring you until you do with a visual approach? If thats the case my contact approach really did make a difference. Between me and my airport there are some small hills that would make vectoring that way an impossible descent, from where I was the airport wasn't really seeable. When I asked for the contact I turned right to the airport and descended below vectoring altitude over those hills, knowing the area really well I knew exactly where the airport was just didn't have visual on it yet. Is that correct? Or is that a visual approach too
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That's correct. That's a Contact Approach and a good use of it. You knew the area really well and exactly where the Airport was.
 
luvflyin said:
The controller handbook does not say the weather must be 500 above the MVA/MVA to clear an aircraft for a Visual Approach. It does say it must be 500 above to vector an aircraft for a Visual Approach.
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Ah that's what it was talking about. I was wondering why it was different. Thanks!
 
We can't offer contact approaches. We can offer visual approaches if the Ceilings are below 500 feet above our MVA/MIA, but we can't initiate a vector for them.

I also won't clear a contact approach if I have traffic in sequence.

Why? I don't know what that aircraft on the contact approach is doing. A contact approach allows the aircraft to self-navigate to the airport. All the aircraft needs is 1 mile and clear of clouds. If I have a sequence running, that's not safe enough to sequence the two. I'll either vector a visual approach (using downwind, base, final legs) or go out for the ILS. The caveat is when running parallels, which I believe is what happened at the PNS.

At ORD, we run visuals with an intercept heading all the time. Arrivals enter downwind from the STAR, we turn aircraft base and point out airport. Arrival aircraft sees airport, we turn intercept to final and clear approach. This helps prevent the visual approach from overshooting the final and welding themselves with the aircraft on the center runway.
 
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MarkZ said:
We can't offer contact approaches. We can't offer visual approaches if the Ceilings are below 500 feet above our MVA/MIA. I also won't clear a contact approach if I have traffic in sequence.
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Why not?
 
Ok, maybe we can. I meant to say we can't vector visual approaches. I'll edit my statement, thanks for the correction.
 
As long as you have vis. of at least a mile and can stay clear of clouds, that is perfectly fine.
 
In that instance, with on-going sequencing, you would be right not to clear the contact approach and vectoring would be the way to go. When a contact approach is requested, the assumption is that cloudy conditions prevent the requesting pilot from seeing the airport. If you vector that aircraft into sequence, then it should permit landing in the same visual conditions as the other preceding aircraft in the sequence.
 
roncachamp said:
That's allowed by the regs but unlikely due to traffic volume at those airports.
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Doesn't that depend on the reason SVFR is not allowed? Unlikely if it's a big Class B hub, probably so. But if it's a little podunk airport with at least one IAP but no Class E surface area, you can't get SVFR but why couldn't you get a contact approach?
 
azure said:
Doesn't that depend on the reason SVFR is not allowed? Unlikely if it's a big Class B hub, probably so. But if it's a little podunk airport with at least one IAP but no Class E surface area, you can't get SVFR but why couldn't you get a contact approach?
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Yes. I took "where special VFR is not allowed" to mean prohibited by regulation. It goes without saying that it's not allowed where it does not exist.
 
roncachamp said:
Yes. I took "where special VFR is not allowed" to mean prohibited by regulation. It goes without saying that it's not allowed where it does not exist.
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Not sure I understand the distinction. Would it not exist if controllers were allowed to issue the clearance? Is not the prohibition against issuing it a matter of regulation?
 
azure said:
Not sure I understand the distinction. Would it not exist if controllers were allowed to issue the clearance? Is not the prohibition against issuing it a matter of regulation?
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Special VFR exists only in a Surface Area. SVFR minima are one mile and clear of clouds. VFR minima in Class G airspace within 1200' of the surface during the day is one mile and clear of clouds. What would be the point of SVFR in that Class G airspace?
 
roncachamp said:
Special VFR exists only in a Surface Area. SVFR minima are one mile and clear of clouds. VFR minima in Class G airspace within 1200' of the surface during the day is one mile and clear of clouds. What would be the point of SVFR in that Class G airspace?
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VFR minimums at night in Class G are equivalent to day Class E minimums. I guess you could argue that SVFR at night is useless since it requires that you could have gotten an IFR clearance anyway, but it still exists in Class E surface area at night.
 
So..

if I am on IFR plan in VMC, no traffic, getting close to destination but cannot see the airport yet. The controller asks me what approach I want to use and I want to avoid IAP, do I just ask for Visual, even if I do not see and do not know where the field is exactly? And if so, what am I expecting to happen? "Expect Visual" and vectors to pattern entry(or direct) until I report "field in sight"?

Visual Approach is still confusing me not so much its rules, but its practical implementation.
 
genna said:
So..

if I am on IFR plan in VMC, no traffic, getting close to destination but cannot see the airport yet. The controller asks me what approach I want to use and I want to avoid IAP, do I just ask for Visual, even if I do not see and do not know where the field is exactly? And if so, what am I expecting to happen? "Expect Visual" and vectors to pattern entry(or direct) until I report "field in sight"?

Visual Approach is still confusing me not so much its rules, but its practical implementation.
Click to expand...
I tell ATC that we are "expecting the visual". But they won't clear you for the visual unless you report the field or the traffic you are following in sight. So it could be the case that you are expecting the visual but don't get it, then you and the controller need to regroup.
 
And just to add to what Mari said, you can always ask for an instrument approach later if you realize that you're not going to be below the clouds at MVA, or for whatever reason won't be able to see the airport until you're too close for a normal descent and landing. Just tell them as soon as you know so that they can work you in efficiently. In areas where the MVA is high (like almost everywhere in VT), this can happen even if conditions are VFR - view blocked by a ridge, or a VFR broken deck that you can't see through. In the last case, I'd seriously consider a contact approach (though I haven't done that so far).
 
genna said:
So..

if I am on IFR plan in VMC, no traffic, getting close to destination but cannot see the airport yet. The controller asks me what approach I want to use and I want to avoid IAP, do I just ask for Visual, even if I do not see and do not know where the field is exactly? And if so, what am I expecting to happen? "Expect Visual" and vectors to pattern entry(or direct) until I report "field in sight"?

Visual Approach is still confusing me not so much its rules, but its practical implementation.
Click to expand...

You could ask for the visual but you won't be cleared for it until you report the field in sight. You could ask for a contact approach, if all the requirements are there, and be cleared immediately. Or you could just cancel IFR.
 
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