"...Contact FSS for NOTAMS"...Huh?

Discussion in 'Change to my Frequency...' started by Shawn, Nov 27, 2017.

  1. Shawn

    Shawn En-Route

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    3,388
    Location:
    Santa Cruz, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Shawn
    Flyin home today and was on FF with Oakland Center. Another plane was inbound for Paso Robles (KPRB) which is an uncontrolled airport serviced by Oakland Center. Center tells aircraft:

    "...Contact Hawthorne Flight Service Station on 122.4 and report back confirmation of NOTAMS".

    After a few confused back and forths and finally reporting back pilot inquires why he was sent to FSS for NOATMS?

    ATC respond kinda pizzy "It is a new procedure, you reported one minute weather but not NOTAMS and you can get them from a briefer, FSS or I can read them verbatim which I don't have time to do..."

    By his responses I think he was a confused as I was listening to the conversation.

    Anyone know of an ATC procedure that now requires you to confirm NOTAMS as well as AWOS/ATIS to ATC?
     
  2. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2015
    Messages:
    5,211
    Location:
    Vail, Arizona
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timbeck2
    Not that I know of. BUT, I know how frustrating it is (for me) for pilots to show up when we're NOTAM'd closed. I also know what it's like when I land on fumes at an airport that knows it's gas pump is OTS and they didn't NOTAM it.
     
  3. Shawn

    Shawn En-Route

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    3,388
    Location:
    Santa Cruz, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Shawn
    Yeah...not sayin that every pilot shouldn't have NOTAMS...even though it was not an "official" briefing I ran through everything on my Foreflight briefing before my departure...but even having that I would have been just as baffled by what Center was asking for as this poor guy was if I was in his shoes and he didn't sound like just a Weekend Wally flier.
     
  4. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2005
    Messages:
    6,308
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pilawt
    So he switches to 122.4 and Hawthorne tells him, "Aircraft calling near PRB, stand by, you're number four ... " Meanwhile he's lost whatever collision avoidance benefit flight following might have provided.

    And this enhances safety exactly how?
     
  5. ColoPilot

    ColoPilot Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    442
    Location:
    Colorado
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ColoPilot
    How did Oakland center know he didn't have the NOTAMs? Was there something obvious like his destination was closed?
     
  6. Dave Theisen

    Dave Theisen Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    2,295
    Location:
    Marietta, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dave Theisen
    I have been asked this several times recently going into uncontrolled fields. Apparently controllers have new procedures that they didn't feel it was important enough to tell pilots about. Of course I get the notams before departure so I just say yes, but I have heard folks get told to contact flight service if they answer with something less clearly to the affirmative.

    Just being asked the question makes you wonder if you've missed something big.
     
  7. Shawn

    Shawn En-Route

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    3,388
    Location:
    Santa Cruz, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Shawn
    I though that my have ben the case but there was other traffic coming in and out on frequency.

    I am in and out of uncontrolled fields all the time and have never encountered that reporting requirement which is what peaked my curiosity. NorCal TRACON did not query me when headed home to KWVI...wonder if it is a Center thing?
     
  8. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2008
    Messages:
    12,524
    Location:
    mass fla
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ron keating
    That would make you think that your missing something of importance.
     
  9. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Messages:
    21,707
    Location:
    DC Suburbs
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bill S.
    It's pushing more responsibility on the pilot and reducing liability on ATC. Probably result of some incident where ATC got blamed.

    Too bad, because one reason for using ATC services is a safety buffer with all the security NOTAMs that can pop up between the time you brief and the time you arrive at a destination.

    Or it could be to justify more money for FSS contractor. Just wait until the FAA decides to privatize ATC and charge directly for both.
     
  10. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    5,339
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    This has come up before, the difference between having the ATIS and the 'one minute weather.' ATIS will have airport conditions as well as weather. AWOS/ASOS usually doesn't have airport condititions. There are some circumstances where the controller must ensure that the pilot has certain important Notams. I'm pretty sure the aircraft that your friend overheard getting into the pizzin match with the Center was probably IFR. This is around the time of the year when the yearly 'major revisions' to the Controllers Handbook come out. I'm on the road now and don't have time to look, but I will in a day or two.
     
  11. Van Johnston

    Van Johnston Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Messages:
    858
    Location:
    South Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Van Johnston
    My instrument instructor used that phraseology whenever he was simulating ATC. That was my clue to check ATIS or AWOS. He never suggested it meant anything more than that. There is one local field (Gillespie County) that includes a NOTAM in their AWOS that specifies the calm wind runway.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  12. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    9,588
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    The controller is required to confirm that a pilot has the current ATIS code. Pertinent NOTAMs will be on the ATIS.

    A controller is also required to have an IFR arrival confirm that they have the "one minute weather" at non towered fields. That practice is usually carried over to VFRs. Reciept of AWOS doesn't confirm NOTAMs though because not all of them broadcast the appropriate NOTAMs.

    Never have I read that ATC is responsible for ensuring a VFR or IFR, has the NOTAMs for either a towered or non towered airfield. If they are, it's a brand new requirement.
     
    mscard88 likes this.
  13. ateamer

    ateamer Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2007
    Messages:
    536
    Location:
    Santa Cruz, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ateamer
    Looks like the only NOTAM for PRB was a change in the visual descent point on the VOR 19 approach.
     
  14. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    5,339
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    There is no change in procedure on this unless it is very recent, I doubt there is. Below is what the procedure is. As far as the controller saying "It is a new procedure, you reported one minute weather but not NOTAMS and you can get them from a briefer, FSS or I can read them verbatim which I don't have time to do..." goes, it may have been new to him. Wouldn't be the first time something has been around for a long time, it gets ignored a lot and the word comes down from above "start doing this." On ".....or I can read them verbatim which I don't have time to do...," that can be a real consideration, some of those things are pretty wordy and detailed. If it's busy enough that doing it on an already crowded frequency is going to result in unecessary delay to other aircraft the controller has a 'duty' to send the pilot elsewhere to get it. That being said, I think I heard once that maybe a controller once, somewhere, sometime, did it to make a point, like 'plan your flight,' maybe.

    4−7−12. AIRPORT CONDITIONS
    a. EN ROUTE. Before issuing an approach
    clearance or en route descent, and subsequently as
    changes occur, inform an aircraft of any abnormal
    operation of approach and landing aids and of
    destination airport conditions that you know of which
    might restrict an approach or landing.
    NOTE−
    1. Airport conditions information, in the provision of en
    route approach control service, does not include
    information pertaining to cold temperature compensation
    or the airport surface environment other than the landing
    area(s) or obstruction information for aircraft that will be
    cleared for an instrument approach. Accordingly, D
    NOTAMs that contain the keywords TAXIWAY (TWY),
    RAMP, APRON, or SERVICE (SVC) are not required to be
    issued. Additionally, Obstruction NOTAMs (OBST) are not
    required to be issued if an aircraft will be cleared for an
    instrument approach.
    2. When advised of special use airspace (SUA) or military
    training route (MTR) activation, appropriate action is
    taken to separate nonparticipating IFR aircraft from those
    activities when required, and/or to issue applicable
    advisories as warranted. When meeting this requirement,
    there is no requirement for controllers to additionally issue
    the associated D NOTAM activating that SUA or MTR to
    the pilot. Accordingly, D NOTAMs for SUA that contain the
    accountability codes SUAE, SUAC, and SUAW are not
    required to be issued.
    b. TERMINAL. On first contact or as soon as
    possible thereafter, and subsequently as changes
    occur, inform an aircraft of any abnormal operation
    of approach and landing aids and of destination
    airport conditions that you know of which might
    restrict an approach or landing. This information may
    be omitted if it is contained in the ATIS broadcast and
    the pilot states the appropriate ATIS code.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017