Considering an offer...too low?

gitmo234

gitmo234

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gitmo234
Good evening!

I'm considering buying a 1959 Cessa 172... super clean, all maintenance records, (damage history in 1960 and 1997, but professionally fixed and flown regularly since), flies straight, low time (around 503 hours on engine), Garmin 430, all around good looking bird (albeit old). No corrosion

Its currently up for grabs at $26,500... AOPA says its valued at $25080.

I was considering offering $22,000, pending a maintenance inspection and test flight.

Is that offer too low?
 
gitmo234 said:
Good evening!

I'm considering buying a 1959 Cessa 172... super clean, all maintenance records, (damage history in 1960 and 1997, but professionally fixed and flown regularly since), flies straight, low time (around 503 hours on engine), Garmin 430, all around good looking bird (albeit old). No corrosion

Its currently up for grabs at $26,500... AOPA says its valued at $25080.

I was considering offering $22,000, pending a maintenance inspection and test flight.

Is that offer too low?
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Make the offer and find out. In fact, you could offer $20k and if you have to, bump it up to $22k
 
If you don't offer at $22k PM me the contact info, I'll buy it.
 
Straightails are wonderful airplanes!

But I might be a tad prejudiced.
 
After re-looking it, I just emailed in an offer for $24,500.

I'm not sure if airplane dealers are strict about checking email during work hours or if they're only strict to work hours until an offer comes in...but here goes nothing...
 
Years ago vref seemed to be about 25% high. Has it improved lately?
 
I'd do it over the phone, chat him up about it and I'd hit him a 20k and go from there.

More people want your money than his plane.

Also if it's cash that helps.
 
yup, throw in a low ball cash offer. low ball, but let them know you're serious about buying. never pay "full price" or close to it.
 
Theboys said:
I disagree. I've lost deals by low balling. If you lowball me I won't deal with you further. However a legitimate offer is different.
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I don't mean offer $7 when it's offered at $25000, but a $20k offer on $25k is not unreasonable, especially if you show serious intent to purchase (aka cash).
 
I just bought a plane last week. I offered him 2% under his asking price. We settled on 1% and we were both happy. A few months ago I had something on the market and guy said he was interested but thought I was little high. Lowered my price 15%. He then offered me 25% under that. I broke off negotiations.
 
sounds like you overpaid on the first transaction and did the right thing on the second. to me, anyways.
 
Make the offer ,but if you really wanttheairplane be prepared to come up the right price for the airplane,is the price-your comfortable paying.
 
Theboys said:
I disagree. I've lost deals by low balling. If you lowball me I won't deal with you further. However a legitimate offer is different.
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What is a "low-ball" offer in this case?
 
He offered 24500 for it which I feel is a good offer. Good chance he will get it for that. The owner might think it over and just take it. Offer 22000 and he might not even reply. 172,s are not easy to find at the moment with low hours and gps avionics. Especially below 30,000. I've been looking for awhile. I had a early 172 and it was a good plane very cheap to insure and fly.
 
gitmo234 said:
After re-looking it, I just emailed in an offer for $24,500.

I'm not sure if airplane dealers are strict about checking email during work hours or if they're only strict to work hours until an offer comes in...but here goes nothing...
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Sounds like you want to buy an airplane, good job.

Know where I meet all the low ballers? Sitting in the FBO planeless drinking coffee and bitching about the price of aviation. Find a good one, pay a fair price, and enjoy.
 
Interesting people worried about insulting sellers.

I just spent 11 months looking at planes to buy. I was lied to by probably 1/3 of the sellers. Not sure that losing them as friends would have been the worst thing.


As for low ball offers, I found a broker that had a dozen planes listed, real up-front guy, told me all the bad about each plane, and what he thought the owner would take. He freely admitted that they were marked up (no surprise) and that lower offers would be welcomed.

I wasn't able to find a plane from him, but he was good to work with.

I had several "low-ball" offers considered, and accepted, pending one thing or another.

Had one guy tell me not to make him a lower offer, as "prices are rising", he still has it listed, same price.
 
I'm thinking if your looking for a 50,000$ airplane you might get it for 10% less. I looked at a Pilatus pc12 last week. Price was 4.6 million. Don't think they would have taken me serious at a offer 500,000 less. Not that I made a offer on it.
 
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Theboys said:
I'm thinking if your looking for a 50,000$ airplane you might get it for 10% less. I looked at a Pilatus pc12 last week. Price was 4.6 million. Don't think they would have taken me serious at a offer 500,000 less
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What are other ones actually selling for? I probably called on 20 planes in 11 months, all similar models. Some "just sold", and the sellers shared the price (hopefully, honestly), so I knew what the "market" was. Some were 25% high, so, ig 10% is all you would suggest as a discount, those planes wouldn't get an offer, based on your method.

Not sure how that helps the buyer, or the seller.
 
I had been looking for a Malibu for maybe a year. Got really serious in last maybe 6 months. Every time I found one that appealed to me it either had a contract or was sold. I would call maybe day or two after they were listed. They were all selling very close to listed price or at it. I finally found one and had first right of refusal with two other people waiting to wire the funds. I bought on the spot. Got what I wanted.
 
Theboys said:
I had been looking for a Malibu for maybe a year. Got really serious in last maybe 6 months. Every time I found one that appealed to me it either had a contract or was sold. I would call maybe day or two after they were listed. They were all selling very close to listed price or at it. I finally found one and had first right of refusal with two other people waiting to wire the funds. I bought on the spot. Got what I wanted.
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3 offers (your's and two others????), then the price was "under market", and seller should have rejected all 3 of them and waited for a higher price, per rational economic theory.

I know I lost one plane when a higher offer came in, and seller backed out of transaction with me, and, I freely admit I was getting a bargain on that plane.
 
Most of the early 172s I'm seeing have 1200-2200 engine hours. Finding one with an engine in the sweet spot of 200-600 hours isn't easy. They know that a good running low time engine is worth a lot, and prices reflect that. Provided the rest of the plane is in decent shape, $25k for the OPs plane is a fine deal.

This is what I'm interested in: 1956 CESSNA 172 • $23,000 • OR BEST OFFER! • (TTA 3118, TTE 3118, TSMOH 1175, TBO is 1800) 327 hours since new Millenium cylinders, new ignition harness, new exhaust and mufflers.

At least this one has newer cylinders, but just basic radios. Paint is kind of sketchy in some places but can be saved. Still, anything around $23k for low time engine is sweet.
 
Have confidence in yourself to offer what you want to offer. If someone else gets offended...oh well it's nothing personal it's just business...and always remember "everything is worth what it's purchaser will pay for it. Me personally...I wouldn't offer much for a 172... I find very little value in a 172 especially a 172 with less than 180 hp. They are practically rentable by the dozen, have little useful load, rarely (including transition time at airports) any faster than driving, and with too small of tanks to get anywhere where you'd actually be beating the drive... I don't feel like (I know there's more than the faa minimums) with 36/38 gallon tanks trying to make a 3.5 hr flight.

Just remember if you pay more than its worth now you're going to be trying to sell the plane for more than its worth 3 yrs from now when you want retract/more horse/etc. Maybe if you're time building the 430 is worth it for getting instrument. You know that not me. Just it's still a 172. You can always (for a price) change the avionics, get the IR with two kx155s, but you can't really materially change the drag and the lack of power.
 
I have always been amused by the notion that someone would be "insulted" at an offer to buy something... like I somehow owe them a particular price? I offer, they say, "Yes," "No," or "I counter at $XXXX." How tough is that?
 
What's wrong with testing the guy for desperation? No need to leave money on the table. If the guy gets insulted on a lowball offer, fine, move to the next aircraft.

Who is in charge anyway? The seller or the buyer? Always the buyer.
 
I was selling a Toyota Corolla, automatic, air, never wrecked, nice little car with 150K, for $2000. First day I get this woman who comes to look at it. She is crawling around on the ground, looking under the trunk, staring at the paint from 6 inches away. She spends lots of time pointing out any little thing she can find, "Oh there is a little dirt on the carpet right here, see it?". Then she says, "I'll give you $1000". I say, "No". She says, "1,100", and so on. Finally she wants to know how much I'll take. I say the car isn't for sale. She says, what? I tell her the car isn't for sale to her at any price. She says, "Fine, fine, I'll give you the $2,000, I really need the car to get to work". I tell her it's not for sale to her at $5,000. She tells me off and leaves. I sell the car to the very next person, $2000, took 5 minutes, no B.S.

I go through this low baller stuff with everything. I price it aggressively enough that it will sell and I don't even respond to low ballers.

Just the other side of the coin.
 
My favorite line from sellers is; "What is your lowest price?" Usually this is on the phone.

My answer is; "My lowest price is the price I asked for in the ad. If you want to pay less, make an offer."

Which is responded to by; "Uh, how much less can you take?"

Followed by; "You can never tell until you make an offer."

The 'what is your lowest price' people rarely show up to look, and never, ever are buyers unless it's being given away. I also had that lady who inspected my car from every inch, pointed out all the flaws, made a low offer, and we finally got back to my asking offer and I rejected it. She called me twice the following week trying to buy it, and the car is still in my lake house as a runabout. I've sold stuff to people like that who've actually come back and complained and said they were going to sue me. I even had a guy in CA take it to small claims court on a 15YO truck. The judge was not amused.
 
docmirror said:
My favorite line from sellers is; "What is your lowest price?" Usually this is on the phone.

My answer is; "My lowest price is the price I asked for in the ad. If you want to pay less, make an offer."

Which is responded to by; "Uh, how much less can you take?"

Followed by; "You can never tell until you make an offer."
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Translation: Seller, what is your weak spot and how can I hurt it most?

I just wanted to make sure I was on the right track because this is a first for me. I figured out why there wasnt a response last night... I accidentally sent it to my father in-law vs the seller. I corrected that this morning and im in negotiations as we speak.

Cash sale


EDIT: Cash sale as in an unsecured light stream loan.... ie cash to my bank account to the seller its its transparent on whether i have cash or not.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I was selling a Toyota Corolla, automatic, air, never wrecked, nice little car with 150K, for $2000. First day I get this woman who comes to look at it. She is crawling around on the ground, looking under the trunk, staring at the paint from 6 inches away. She spends lots of time pointing out any little thing she can find, "Oh there is a little dirt on the carpet right here, see it?". Then she says, "I'll give you $1000". I say, "No". She says, "1,100", and so on. Finally she wants to know how much I'll take. I say the car isn't for sale. She says, what? I tell her the car isn't for sale to her at any price. She says, "Fine, fine, I'll give you the $2,000, I really need the car to get to work". I tell her it's not for sale to her at $5,000. She tells me off and leaves. I sell the car to the very next person, $2000, took 5 minutes, no B.S.

I go through this low baller stuff with everything. I price it aggressively enough that it will sell and I don't even respond to low ballers.

Just the other side of the coin.
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That's one side yes, but that's her bad, she made the mistake of really wanting the Corolla, and trying to act like she didn't. Hate to say it, but you can only legitimately make a low offer when you're willing to walk away, which is frequently because the actual "value" is substantially below the price. A running Corolla for example (even if from 1995 for example) is almost always a good value. Just like a well running Civic, but she made the mistake on low balling on something she actually wanted and was priced near (if not at or below) its actual value. Still, if she had offered $1,800 she might have made the deal...Maybe still at $2,000 but you probably would not have taken it personally.

At the same time, by that experience, you could have potentially sold it to her for more than $2,000 because you obtained information in the negotiation (due to headaches of dealing with that type of personality I can totally see why you wanted to not sell to her though) that she REALLY wanted the car.

At the same time, the actual "value" of planes is hard to know, brokers keep that information to themselves, even the tools actually available to ordinary people is pretty limited, and you can get an engine with 900 hours but a prop strike 20 years ago, that never had a tear down, and the owner had the plane sit, afraid to fly it himself out of the pattern, hoping that the 20 year old log book entries about a prop strike don't get reviewed but putting maybe 15 hrs a year on the engine, and isn't initially priced with that information present (but might in fact knock 40% of the price and "offend" the seller). If the worse that happens is that you Don't deal with someone else's headache...that's a win.
 
gitmo234 said:
Translation: Seller, what is your weak spot and how can I hurt it most?

I just wanted to make sure I was on the right track because this is a first for me. I figured out why there wasnt a response last night... I accidentally sent it to my father in-law vs the seller. I corrected that this morning and im in negotiations as we speak.
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You're doing it right. Don't be put off, and be prepared to buy if the deal is accepted. Be professional, but protect your own money. Once the deal is in progress, you can always back out. I rejected a plane once that I flew 900 miles to see because when I got in and closed the door, it wouldn't stay latched, and I could see sky through the gap in the top. It was billed in the ad as condition 8 of 10. I gave it a 3 of 10.

As for a 172 not being faster than a car, I drive to my kids house and it's 5 hours and 45 min door to door with one quick stop for gas. I just checked it on skyvector and the same flight in a 172 at 100kts is 2.5 hours in the air. Add 20 min to get to airport and take off and that's still significant time saving. Maybe not great, but at least 2 hour savings and I don't have to worry about other drivers much.
 
gitmo234 said:
Translation: Seller, what is your weak spot and how can I hurt it most?

I just wanted to make sure I was on the right track because this is a first for me. I figured out why there wasnt a response last night... I accidentally sent it to my father in-law vs the seller. I corrected that this morning and im in negotiations as we speak.

Cash sale


EDIT: Cash sale as in an unsecured light stream loan.... ie cash to my bank account to the seller its its transparent on whether i have cash or not.
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Congrats!

The point about asking sellers "What's the lowest price you will take" I think is a great one, I try to make it never to ask for something for free that I should be paying for. Water at a restaurant...should be free.

Information...now anyone who knows, knows that's valuable. As a result, if you want information you have to pay for it with a real offer. Then you get the information.
 
gov98 said:
That's one side yes, but that's her bad, she made the mistake of really wanting the Corolla, and trying to act like she didn't. Hate to say it, but you can only legitimately make a low offer when you're willing to walk away, which is frequently because the actual "value" is substantially below the price. A running Corolla for example (even if from 1995 for example) is almost always a good value. Just like a well running Civic, but she made the mistake on low balling on something she actually wanted and was priced near (if not at or below) its actual value. Still, if she had offered $1,800 she might have made the deal...Maybe still at $2,000 but you probably would not have taken it personally.

At the same time, by that experience, you could have potentially sold it to her for more than $2,000 because you obtained information in the negotiation (due to headaches of dealing with that type of personality I can totally see why you wanted to not sell to her though) that she REALLY wanted the car.

At the same time, the actual "value" of planes is hard to know, brokers keep that information to themselves, even the tools actually available to ordinary people is pretty limited, and you can get an engine with 900 hours but a prop strike 20 years ago, that never had a tear down, and the owner had the plane sit, afraid to fly it himself out of the pattern, hoping that the 20 year old log book entries about a prop strike don't get reviewed but putting maybe 15 hrs a year on the engine, and isn't initially priced with that information present (but might in fact knock 40% of the price and "offend" the seller). If the worse that happens is that you Don't deal with someone else's headache...that's a win.
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The variable is not price but demand. Yes, the corolla has a lot of demand, and I knew that, so did the smart buyer that came after her. My time is worth more than spending weeks trying to eeeekk the last $100 out of it, but I didn't have to give it away either.

Planes are the same way. With 172 rentals at $140-170 an hour, a used but clean 172 for $25K will sell all day every day. Every pilot knows this. Sure you'll pay a fair price, BUT when you sell it you'll also quickly get a fair price without having to put up with a bunch of low balling.
 
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