"Congested" vs. "Other than congested"...

fiveoboy01

fiveoboy01

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Dirty B
How does one determine which is which when over a given area for the purpose of minimum altitude???

Then you also have "sparsely populated" under the "other than congested" rule.

Is there anything that spells these definitions out more specifically or is it the pilot's discretion?
 
fiveoboy01 said:
How does one determine which is which when over a given area for the purpose of minimum altitude???
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All you can do is use your best judgement.

There is no actual rule - the FAA will decide on a case by case basis when someone comes to their attention.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
How does one determine which is which when over a given area for the purpose of minimum altitude???

Then you also have "sparsely populated" under the "other than congested" rule.

Is there anything that spells these definitions out more specifically or is it the pilot's discretion?
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It is the FAA's discretion. If they want to hang you, Death Valley is "congested".

Jim
 
I figured. Sometimes it's obvious yes, other times not. That the FAA can interpret it as they wish is noted:)
 
The FAA likes to leave the rules loose,so they can use them against you ,if they are after you.
 
When I was taught this stuff, I was told yellow on a sectional chart was a good indication of "congested area".

Probably an informal rule of thumb, but I do keep it in the back of my mind when deciding minimum altitudes.
 
It depends how big of a bribe you can afford for the FAA guy who's deciding in the situation.
 
Some have argued that yellow areas on a sectional are considered congested, but the FAA has held that congested areas are not just the yellow spots on the chart.

Basically, if you do a low buzzjob, and the local FSDO gets complaints from multiple people in that area, you can bet that that area is likely considered congested.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
How does one determine which is which when over a given area for the purpose of minimum altitude???

Then you also have "sparsely populated" under the "other than congested" rule.

Is there anything that spells these definitions out more specifically or is it the pilot's discretion?
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"Where two or three are gathered together. . ."

That is one of those undefined things that the FAA can use to its advantage.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
"Where two or three are gathered together. . ."

That is one of those undefined things that the FAA can use to its advantage.
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That's what I've heard from other sources, too. If you draw too much attention to yourself, FAA will call it whatever they decide works out best for them.
 
Yeah, the whole "we will tell you when we hang you if it was congested or not" is bull****.

It's not that hard to say "x structures/acre is congested." But then they wouldn't be able to **** you over. And let's face it, that's all the FAA is here for. It really stands for F*** All Airmen
 
Take a decongestant then you can fly as low as you want wherever you want. Never bothered to read the label, that is what that stuff does right?
 
Anything goes wrong you can count on it begin congested even if all the denizens bear fur.
 
The FAA has some very loose definitions of "congested area".

From some NTSB Orders on the subject:

http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/o_n_o/docs/Aviation/3646.pdf
Respondents claim, to the contrary, that Shepard Mesa is not such an area. Although the Administrator's reply inexplicably fails to address this claim, it is without foundation in case law. See, e.g., Administrator v. Harkcom, 35 C.A.B. 934, 937 (1962), and cases cited there. Thus, the Shepard Mesa subdivision -- comprised of a minimum of 20 houses, in an area approximately .5 mi. x .66 mi. -- would qualify as a congested area.

http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/o_n_o/docs/Aviation/3693.PDF
...you operated or caused to be operated N4709P, over a congested area of Malibu, namely Civic Center Way, at an altitude of 250 feet AGL [above ground level], descending over a Hughes Market and the Malibu Country Market, flaps down and slow speed, until it reached an altitude of about 100 feet AGL, headed toward a field just south of the Court House at 23525 Civic Center Way. When at an altitude of about 100 feet AGL over the Malibu Country Market, you began a climb out. There were many shoppers in the markets and adjacent parking lots.

http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/o_n_o/docs/Aviation/4080.PDF
During the course of the above flight you made several low passes over a congested area, specifically the Pearce Ford Tower at Western Kentucky University, Bowling Green, Kentucky,...

http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/o_n_o/docs/Aviation/4188.PDF
In the Board's view, even if Interstate 5, a major California freeway, is not "bumper to bumper" on a late Saturday afternoon, moderate traffic in every lane still renders it "congested," for purposes of the regulation. See also Administrator v. Dutton, NTSB Order No. EA-3204 (1990) (Moderate traffic on a highway at 12:55 p.m. is a congested area for purposes of the minimum safe altitude regulation).

http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/o_n_o/docs/Aviation/4210.PDF
...respondent operated his Cessna 172 aircraft within 100-200 feet of the ground in the Revere-Saugus, MA area on July 11, 1992, in the vicinity of a large regatta (including "Tall Ships") commemorating the 500th anniversary of Columbus' voyage. The nearby ground and water areas were congested, and respondent would not have been able to make a safe emergency landing.

BTW, I think the first one cited (in which a clump of 20 houses is considered a "congested area") is the strictest interpretation of the term "congested area" in that context, and one which should be weighed carefully by any pilot considering flight below 1000 AGL.
 
Brad Z said:
Some have argued that yellow areas on a sectional are considered congested, but the FAA has held that congested areas are not just the yellow spots on the chart..
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The yellow spots on the chart are defined in how much light pollution they throw at night, not as an indication of how congested/populated they are.
 
FastEddieB said:
When I was taught this stuff, I was told yellow on a sectional chart was a good indication of "congested area".

Probably an informal rule of thumb, but I do keep it in the back of my mind when deciding minimum altitudes.
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The yellow on the charts do not keep up with reality of urban growth.

A group of recreational campers gathering on a lakebed or open desert becomes a contested area if something else happens to garner the FAA attention.
 
Ultralight pilots have to deal with this all the time. They are happy the FAA keeps it "loose" because it can be easier to not make a big deal out of an emergency landing in a potentually congested area that does no damage, which is more likely with the lightweight and slow 103 craft.
 
An FAA investigator later cited Strub for “careless and reckless” flying, defining the river as a “congested area,”

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2008/July/1/After-the-Accident

And, "[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Strub skipped breakfast and got off the ground alone in his Stearman in time to watch the balloon spectacle from above. When he landed, airport visitors started asking for airplane rides—and Strub was glad to oblige. As a private pilot, Strub said he knew he couldn’t charge for the rides. But one rider insisted that Strub take a token payment of $8—a fact that would come back to haunt him. He said he thought he could accept the money as pro rata cost sharing. The FAA later disagreed, however, and faulted Strub for failing to have a commercial pilot certificate, 100-hour aircraft mechanical inspections, a drug screening program, and other requirements for professional scenic flying operations."

[/FONT]
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
An FAA investigator later cited Strub for “careless and reckless” flying, defining the river as a “congested area,”

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2008/July/1/After-the-Accident

And, "[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Strub skipped breakfast and got off the ground alone in his Stearman in time to watch the balloon spectacle from above. When he landed, airport visitors started asking for airplane rides—and Strub was glad to oblige. As a private pilot, Strub said he knew he couldn’t charge for the rides. But one rider insisted that Strub take a token payment of $8—a fact that would come back to haunt him. He said he thought he could accept the money as pro rata cost sharing. The FAA later disagreed, however, and faulted Strub for failing to have a commercial pilot certificate, 100-hour aircraft mechanical inspections, a drug screening program, and other requirements for professional scenic flying operations."

[/FONT]
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Sounds like he was set up.
 
BillTIZ said:
The yellow on the charts do not keep up with reality of urban growth.
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It's not really intended to either. If you ask the cartographers rather than flight instructors, you'll find that the yellow populated places coloration is put on the charts to indicate "lighted regions at night."
 
flyingron said:
It's not really intended to either. If you ask the cartographers rather than flight instructors, you'll find that the yellow populated places coloration is put on the charts to indicate "lighted regions at night."
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I just found this online:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/fli...aero_guide/media/Chart_Users_Guide_12thEd.pdf

Handy thing to download and keep on a tablet.

On page 29, it shows that yellow indicates "Populated Places".

If you read my prior post on the topic, I went out of my way to say it was not definitive, just a rough rule of thumb.
 
Norman said:
Sounds like he was set up.
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I'm thinking more like he had a moment of weakness and acceded to a well-intended offer made in ignorance but nevertheless not legal for him to accept. I've said it before and I'll probably say it again -- if you're a private pilot and want to be certain you stay out of trouble, just don't take money from passengers.
 
FastEddieB said:
I just found this online:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/fli...aero_guide/media/Chart_Users_Guide_12thEd.pdf

Handy thing to download and keep on a tablet.

On page 29, it shows that yellow indicates "Populated Places".

If you read my prior post on the topic, I went out of my way to say it was not definitive, just a rough rule of thumb.
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Regardless of that, while yellow may indicate "populated places" (which is to my knowledge not a term either used or defined in any FAR or FAA enforcement case law), but that is not the same as "congested area" (a term rather loosely defined in case law as discussed above), 91.119 uses the latter term, not the former. Of course, I'm sure the FAA would have no trouble at all convincing an ALJ that a "populated place" is a "congested area", so avoiding those yellow areas below 1000 AGL seems essential. However, the mere fact that an area is not depicted in yellow is most unlikely to be availing as a defense to a 91.119 "congested area" violation allegation.

Y'all be careful, now, hear?
 
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Of Ron's five cites, four of them involved some sort of interaction with a local LEO.

So if you have to buzz something or someone, don't **** off a cop and, in the words of Martha Lunken, "only do it once". They never get your tail number on the first pass...
 
Old Geek said:
So if you have to buzz something or someone, don't **** off a cop and, in the words of Martha Lunken, "only do it once". They never get your tail number on the first pass...
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Don't bet on that -- I know of one case where Martha herself got the number on the first pass.

That said, her exact words to me were, "Tell [the pilot] I didn't see what he did, and I don't want to see it again." ;)
 
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