concerns about (potential) student

[Unregistered (novice CFI)]

Sorry this isn't exactly a lesson learned... I just want to get some opinions anonymously.
A friend is a private pilot, maybe 75 hours total, and interested in getting an instrument rating and complex endorsement. He keeps asking when i'll have time to take students, so I assume he wants me to instruct him.

Problem is I'm concerned about him as a pilot. His aviation knowledge is seriously lacking. While he's a reasonably bright guy and seems interested in learning, he doesn't know a lot of things I expect a private pilot to know. I'm not opposed to doing remedial ground training and assigning some self study. Actually i think that would be beneficial for him.

However, he also seems too eager to fly even when conditions are poor. I think he either doesn't understand forecasts or doesn't respect weather hazards (or both).
He's flown with high surface winds (gusting in the 30s, insurance limit on the plane was 20-25), flown xc in marginal vfr weather (both low ceiling and low viz.) multiple times, and repeatedly plans flights when the forecast calls for obviously unflyable weather. He cancels them at the last minute when the forecast thunderstorms or 200 ft ceiling show up and he can't get out. If the forecast was wrong enough that he could legally fly, but with questionable safety, I have no idea what choice he would make.

I'm not sure whether it's reasonable to expect i can impress some sort of better judgment on him while instructing or if i'm just going to leave him with more ways to get himself in trouble?

Wondering if anyone's had similar issues with a student and what choices you made.

 

[denverpilot]

Perhaps a heart-to-heart and some cherry picked NTSB reports as Lesson #1 with the expectation that if his respect of weather doesn't increase, you'll "fire" him as a student for his own good?

 

[Henning]

First thing to realize is that the guy is in the condition he's in because he had crappy instructors most likely. Try to do a better job with him.

 

[gismo]

First thing to realize is that the guy is in the condition he's in because he had crappy instructors most likely. Try to do a better job with him.

I've met one or two such pilots and in their cases I doubt their CFIs were responsible, at least not beyond signing them off for a checkride when the CFIs knew their student was irresponsible.

 

[Henning]

I've met one or two such pilots and in their cases I doubt their CFIs were responsible, at least not beyond signing them off for a checkride when the CFIs knew their student was irresponsible.

Doesn't sound irresponsible to me, just not a scared ***** ready to cancel a flight at the mention of weather. If the weather is actually crap when he's supposed to fly he cancels then, not before.

If he needs to be run off of flying, so do I.

 

[jnmeade]

I don't know how to assess your OP. Are you a 2,500 hour AMEL with lots of time down low in bad weather hauling checks and chickens at night? Or are you a 300 hour aviation mill product who has never flown closer than 20 nm to a little thunderstorm, flies daylight only and files on glass cockpit planes? It's hard to know how to assess your characterization of the IFR candidate. One might say he recognizes the need for more credentials and already flies marginal weather so he understands that need. I'm not sure I read anywhere that you think he is breaking the regs.
If you don't want to teach him, just tell him you don't want to teach him. You don't need a reason. If you think he may use the knowledge you impart to do something you wouldn't do, then don't teach your kids to drive or use the television remote control.

 

[TMetzinger]

Tough call to make. I don't know the history or depth of your relationship with this guy. I like Nate's approach.

 

[poadeleted20]

If you're not sure what he'll do, don't sign him off for the test. But that doesn't mean you can't take him on and see what you think after actually working and flying with him. As for his "aviation knowledge [being] seriously lacking," you have the opportunity to fix that, and he won't learn better if nobody teaches him.

 

[airguy]

He cancels them at the last minute when the forecast thunderstorms or 200 ft ceiling show up and he can't get out.

Don't see anything wrong with that - I plan a lot of flights with questionable forecasts and wait until departure time to make a go/no-go decision. The questionable part is where that go/no-go line is, and that's a very subjective question. Of course, part of that is that I always have a plan B in case I need to cancel - that's just part of the planning process.

I know at 75 hours I was still very much in love with the idea of flying anytime, anywhere, for any reason - like a 16 year old kid with my fresh drivers license. My primary instructor was an absolute idiot and I was just starting to figure out how much I didn't know at this point. Consider that your prospective student might be in the same place, and take this opportunity to straighten him out a bit.

 

[HerrGruyere]

I also wait until about an hour before I'm going to go flying to decide whether or not to go. Although, I'm still a student and my CFI ultimately decides for me.

 

[wabower]

Does your current relationship suggest that the guy would try to lean on you with respect to training? With respect to flying with you does he view you as an authority figure or just one of his buds who will cut him some slack and get it done?

 

[Unregistered]

I know the CFI who did his primary training - I'm sure he's a large part of the reason for the knowledge issues. Yet his CFI was actually fairly conservative when it came to weather. But apparently that didn't rub off on my friend at all.

Don't see anything wrong with that - I plan a lot of flights with questionable forecasts and wait until departure time to make a go/no-go decision.

There isn't. Wait and see is fine. My point - which i wasn't clear on - is that he seems completely oblivious to what the forecast says. A forecast for 3 days of heavy rain with low clouds and a huge storm system moving through the area of flight: his (completely serious) response - "weather looks good, no reason to expect we'll have to cancel". I don't understand how you can see that report and draw that conclusion. It almost seems like he wants there to be good weather, so he sees a forecast for good weather - regardless of what it actually says.

This applies to current conditions too. After one of his 1500AGL, 4 mile vis. cross countries he remarked that the weather in flight was worse than he expected when he took off. He took off into those conditions and the weather was reported at those levels, and below, the whole route. So I don't understand that comment either.

The questionable part is where that go/no-go line is, and that's a very subjective question.

True, and maybe i'm being inappropriate in applying my standards of where I think that line should be to his flying. It's hard not to. I guess my issue is that I'm uncomfortable with the decisions he's making. If, after doing all the training, he's still making the same sorts of decisions then I'm not going to be happy. I think his choices are more of a personality thing - so I'm unsure of the extent to which I can influence his decision making.

I'm sure this won't be the only time I run into a situation like this. But being relatively new to the CFI thing, this is the first time I've encountered it. I appreciate the replies.

 

[saracelica]

If the original poster was me. I'd probably offer to do the "complex" portion and see how it goes. That way the wx would have to be the same requirements as he currently is in. If you start in on IFR he may want to go when lightning and stuff is in the area or forecasted. Which then is even more serious.

Maybe you should take him for a cup of coffee and express your concerns.

 

[airguy]

True, and maybe i'm being inappropriate in applying my standards of where I think that line should be to his flying. It's hard not to. I guess my issue is that I'm uncomfortable with the decisions he's making. If, after doing all the training, he's still making the same sorts of decisions then I'm not going to be happy. I think his choices are more of a personality thing - so I'm unsure of the extent to which I can influence his decision making.

Does he have current/previous exposure to pilots who would fly in conditions like that? Not saying risky necessarily - crop dusters generally don't get concerned with any clouds higher than about 1000', but most of us VFR pilots would cringe a bit at the thought of a cross-country in those conditions. I know some pilots personally who think scud-running is a God-given constitutional right and they do it without a second thought. If I was a very low-time pilot I might be tempted to emulate them. The people that do it on a regular basis and make it look easy could be encouraging him without realizing it to make the same decisions, without realizing the level of training and experience needed to do it safely.

I was one of the lucky ones I guess, my pre-training days were filled with lots of right seat time in business turboprops and light jets. I learned about flying from some real pros and carried that over into my PPL training.

 

[gismo]

If the original poster was me. I'd probably offer to do the "complex" portion and see how it goes. That way the wx would have to be the same requirements as he currently is in. If you start in on IFR he may want to go when lightning and stuff is in the area or forecasted. Which then is even more serious.

Maybe you should take him for a cup of coffee and express your concerns.

My reaction was just the opposite (no disrespect to saracelica intended). If the pilot starts with IR training they are likely to learn a lot more about weather and stand a fairly good chance to gain more respect for it in addition to losing most of the temptation to scud run. IME most current IR pilots are far more averse to blundering into ice or TRW on an IFR flight than they were with flying just below a 1200 AGL ceiling in less than fabulous visibility.

OTOH, if the pilot in question doesn't learn that an IR doesn't provide the ability to ignore adverse weather it is possible that he's be just as unsafe with the IR as he appears to be without it. If the pilot goes for the complex endorsement prior to obtaining an IR, they will probably just get into weather trouble more quickly.

 

[RyanShort1]

My reaction was just the opposite (no disrespect to saracelica intended). If the pilot starts with IR training they are likely to learn a lot more about weather and stand a fairly good chance to gain more respect for it in addition to losing most of the temptation to scud run. IME most current IR pilots are far more averse to blundering into ice or TRW on an IFR flight than they were with flying just below a 1200 AGL ceiling in less than fabulous visibility.

OTOH, if the pilot in question doesn't learn that an IR doesn't provide the ability to ignore adverse weather it is possible that he's be just as unsafe with the IR as he appears to be without it. If the pilot goes for the complex endorsement prior to obtaining an IR, they will probably just get into weather trouble more quickly.

I concur! I had a pilot come looking for a "quick" checkout in the Cessna 210 at Boerne. The weather was such that I would fly in it, but I considered it very marginal for him. He KNEW we were going to go fly, and had NO CLUE what the weather was about, and this from a guy "nearly done" with his instrument and commercial. I was NOT impressed. We did an hour of ground on that before touching the airplane on the pre-flight.

Ryan