Compression tests are BS - an example

Based on this description, it seems to be that you had a deal for at least $4000 more than what the seller was prepared to accept, so he took that off the price to close the deal. I don't know why anyone would consider 68 to be a trash cylinder; I've never heard that. But I would consider an engine at 2800 to probably be in need of overhaul soon and price it accordingly.

^^^This. It doesn’t even make sense to talk in terms of replacing one cylinder; replacing all of them should’ve already been priced in. What’s more, according to the Lycoming SI, this compression test was normal.

So, you talked him down another $4000. That’s cool.
 
Compression testing is just one tool in the toolbox. Borescopes are good as well, but borescopes cannot see the rings and might not see a crack in a cylinder that only shows during a compression test when the motor is hot. I agree there is too much emphasis on the numbers. When the engine is running cruise power at operating temp, who can say what these numbers are ?
 
^^^This. It doesn’t even make sense to talk in terms of replacing one cylinder; replacing all of them should’ve already been priced in. What’s more, according to the Lycoming SI, this compression test was normal.

So, you talked him down another $4000. That’s cool.
Yeah. I was thinking the seller was pretty damn lucky to run across our OP.
 
Yeah. I was thinking the seller was pretty damn lucky to run across our OP.

There’s a sucker born every minute. :confused:

The airplane was tough to price because it was 25 years newer than every other Arrow for sale at the time. I’d much rather deal with the risk of an overhaul (a known quantity) vs the insidious risk of corrosion. What’s more, many older planes had engines with fewer hours but insane numbers of years. I feel better about mine than those.
 
I completely agree on the value of borescoping. Obviously the compression test has value, but its relative importance compared to actually looking in the cylinder has been painfully over-emphasized but far too many people I’ve talked to. The undeniable blind obsession with these numbers throughout piston aviation is the primary thing that I consider BS.
You're the one obsessing with the numbers. It has been pointed out to you that if we get an unsatisfactory number, we rock the prop to see if it improves. We listen at the intake, exhaust and dipstick hole or oil filler to see where the leakage is. If there is suspicion of cylinder damage we get the borescope out. We track the compression numbers from one inspection to the next to see if a trend is developing, or if one lower reading was an outlier and has cleared itself.

I suppose you tell your doctors what they should be using as far as medical tests go, too? And how they should be interpreting those results? And how those tests are all BS anyway?
 
If there is suspicion of cylinder damage we get the borescope out

Why do you only borescope if compressions are low? That is obsessing with compression readings.

Plenty of examples of incipient valve failure that could be fixed (lapping, fix rotator, etc.) before compressions were affected if you’d borescoped the cylinder.

I mostly just use mine to start debates on the Internet.
 
Why do you only borescope if compressions are low? That is obsessing with compression readings.

Plenty of examples of incipient valve failure that could be fixed (lapping, fix rotator, etc.) before compressions were affected if you’d borescoped the cylinder.
As Silvaire said, the borescope will almost always show nothing unless the leak is really, really bad. Doing a borescope without the compression test is ignoring valuable information.

I mostly just use mine to start debates on the Internet.
That's called trolling and it can get you tossed off the forum.
 
In any field, this applies:

upload_2023-5-21_8-53-26.png

Education is a valuable thing, but there are those who do not have it, yet they dismiss it as valueless. We used to run into such types in the flight school, and it was nearly impossible to train them. They knew it all already, and they would criticize those with the training and experience until they got themselves expelled. Some went on to wreck airplanes.
 
As Silvaire said, the borescope will almost always show nothing unless the leak is really, really bad. Doing a borescope without the compression test is ignoring valuable information.

You specifically referred to doing a compression test and only borescoping if the test is bad. While I disagree that all poor borescope results would be accompanied by poor compression results, I'm only aware of anecdotes to support this.

More importantly Continental has made it clear that borescope inspections should be performed with every compression test (they call it a differential pressure test :confused:) performed. Here's the old SB, since integrated into the maintenance manual: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pdf/servicebulletin.pdf

Why would Continental do this if borescoping is only useful to deal with compression test false positives?

Further, given this (non-regulatory) requirement has been out for 20 years, why do you only borescope if compressions are low?
 
Some things are best to be not self- taught. Can anyone recommend a good

on- line borescope course applicable to light GA piston engines?
 
Why do you only borescope if compressions are low? That is obsessing with compression readings.
Plenty of examples of incipient valve failure that could be fixed (lapping, fix rotator, etc.) before compressions were affected if you’d borescoped the cylinder.
I mostly just use mine to start debates on the Internet.

First of all, the tool you are referring to is, in almost all cases these days, NOT a borescope. It is one of a variety of products with some sort of probe arm onto which a $30 Chinese dental camera is mounted giving you a 640x480 picture on your phone or laptop. I'm not saying they are useless, I've got at least four different ones myself including an actual Chinese dental camera but they definitely are not borescopes.

Secondly your claim of "plenty of examples" tells me you've watched a Savvy Aviation webcast or something and are just repeating word of mouth with no data to support it.

Thirdly, are you honestly claiming that you can stick a cheap dental camera into a cylinder and based on what you see make a call to pull it or start disassembling the valve train in-situ even if it has perfect compression results? Oh wait, you don't believe in any value in compression tests because they are complete BS so you'd probably just skip that step.

Give it a break already, you're making a big todo over nothing here.
 
Secondly your claim of "plenty of examples" tells me you've watched a Savvy Aviation webcast or something and are just repeating word of mouth with no data to support it.

Are those not examples? Again, Continental's guidance is also consistent with the utility of borescopes independent from compression test results.

Obviously nobody is skipping compression tests. They're required by regulation.

Thirdly, are you honestly claiming that you can stick a cheap dental camera into a cylinder and based on what you see make a call to pull it or start disassembling the valve train in-situ even if it has perfect compression results?

If by "disassembling the valve train in-situ" you mean replacing the rotator cap? Absolutely.
 
LOL you started this thread, remind me again - what's the title?

I fail to see your point. Plenty of things are required/have some value and are also BS.

Whether others bore/dental/chinascope their cylinders when they do a compression/leak down/differential compression/differential pressure test/check is absolutely up to them.
 
Further, given this (non-regulatory) requirement has been out for 20 years, why do you only borescope if compressions are low?
If compressions have been good, I have NEVER seen anything of concern in the cylinder. Others may have, maybe, but if the doctor uses his stethoscope on a young person and hears nothing of concern, and there are no symptoms, would he then do an ECG anyway?

Continental's borescope recommendation is a butt-covering thing. The manufacturer's have a lot of that, and you can't blame them. They're being sued all the time for stuff that was never their fault. I don't recall Lycoming demanding borescoping.

Moreover, borescopes haven't been around that long. What in the world did the old guys do without them?

Nothing wrong with a borescope, but to suggest that it is superior and replaces the compression test ignores the fact that leakages are often detected long before anything shows up visually. It also finds any cracks in the head casting, and Transport Canada demands that check for on-condition engines in commercially-registered aircraft.

In a previous career many years ago I was the foreman in an air brake component remanufacturing plant. We tested every overhauled component, and used soap and water to find leaks. Nothing that showed a leak was released until it was fixed. We also, on the air compressors, pressure-tested the coolant jackets, and sometimes we'd see the soap bubbling for no apparent good reason. It was usually due to microscopic cracking of the castings, often from some mechanic overtightening the coolant hose fittings. We could not see those cracks. Only the air leaking and making bubbles found them. Visual inspection was useless. Air has 1/800th the density of the coolant, and it finds leaks fast. We didn't have one, but there were ultrasonic leak detectors that needed no soapy mess. They detected the high-frequency sounds made by air escaping under pressure.

In Canada we have an AD that applies to all aircraft using the exhaust system as a source of cabin heat. There have been fatal accidents when the aircraft occupants were disabled by carbon monoxide leaking into the cabin. The AD calls for removal of the heat muff around the pipe or muffler, and a visual inspection using a 10X magnifier to look for cracks or small holes, and a pressure test using low-pressure air to further test suspect areas. I found that doing the pressure/soapy water test found leaking cracks that were undetectable with the magnifier, so I did it on every AD check. Still, there are mechanics who either just take a little peek under the muff, or pencil-whip the AD inspection. A shop across the field from us went to do the check on a Cherokee, and when they took the muff off they found a hole in the muffler you could nearly put your fist into. "No wonder I was getting headaches," the owner said, and that was in the summer. He'd only recently bought the airplane and hadn't even used the heat yet, but there was enough CO getting past the cabin heat valve. When they took the muffler off it fell apart in two pieces. The previous shop got a visit from the TC inspectors.

Incompetence is everywhere, and aircraft maintenance is no different. Mechanics sometimes take shortcuts, and owners sometimes insist that the time not be taken (it's expensive) to do some "stupid" inspection. That's owner incompetence. Sure, there are cheat mechanics out there, but there are way more cheap owners.
 
Rant time. Nothing that hasn't been said before.

About two years ago I bought my plane. I had a pretty thorough prebuy done, and as part of that the mechanic told me the compressions were:

74 68 72 75

with leakage past the rings. Oh no, better prepare to trash that cylinder! I took this info to the seller and took $4k off the purchase price. For reference, this engine had 2800 SFRB. Good deal, enough to replace that bad cylinder!

The next year, had the plane in for annual (2900 SFRB) and got the following compression readings:

76 77 75 78

That bad cylinder was now my second best! For reference when the engine came from the factory the first compression reading was:

73 75 75 74

That's right, all compressions at annual were as good or better than new, at 2900 hours.

I've attached every compression test since rebuilt. The prebuy test is pretty obvious.
Compression tests are military-grade BS. Prove me wrong.:popcorn:
Did you refund the seller the $4000?
 
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