Complete logs

Arob16

Arob16

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Arob16
Hey folks - in shopping for an aircraft I've noticed that, while most owners have all aircraft/engine/prop logs, some of the older aircraft have early years missing. Now, my intuitive take on this is that for a 1970's manufactured airplane, having the last 37 years of logs is 99.9% good, even if it's missing the first 2 years of its logs (i.e 1976 C172 missing 1976-1978, but 1979-2017 all available)

What's everyone's opinion?


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Past damage history is not a deal breaker for me. I just want to read about it and verify it was repaired and documented appropriately. Not having the logs is a deal breaker for me. To each their own.
 
There are many reasons why the early logs may be missing and I can't come up with a reason that it would work for me. When I was looking I found what appeared to be a really nice plane missing as you said the first couple of years. It had been exported new from Cessna. The problem was that I could not verify the hours on the airframe and that was a show stopper for me. Also, you'll take a hit when it comes time to sell.

Just my $0.02... Popcorn time...:popcorn:
 
It doesn't bother me on an old airframe provided it's priced accordingly. The Aztec was missing the first 20 years of logs. It was also 40 years old at the time I bought it.

Really, the most recent 10-20 years are what matter most.
 
No logs/missing ....no buy. Period.

Found a great 210 and its first 15 years had logs...from Iran, South Africa, Germany, Ireland, Florida (sheriff sale), crash in Wyoming and rebuilt.....ONLY 4700 TT??????????? Airplane was very nice and well maintained by and A&P but my thought was that it is fine now but how would my wife sell it if I croaked? How big a loss would she have to take? There are too many planes for sale that are clean and well documented.
 
Yeah I think for the specific example that I'll potentially be pursuing, since the last 37 years are accountable in the airframe log (1980-2017), I'm at least going to get my A&P to give me his opinion of the situation (missing date of manufacture 1976-1979). If he says that the traceability for total time or something else presents significant risk to aircraft, I'll probably not pursue it further.
 
Hi Arob.

I am going to deviate from the general tone here. Missing two years right after manufacture wouldn't turn me off. That was a LONG time ago, and there are myriad reasons the logs could be missing. Have a trusted mechanic look through the logs since and see what they think. Cessna 172's can stand a lot of total airframe time.
 
Have an a&up do a review of the logs,check with FAA for any 337 S issued,and get a good pre purchase .if the airplane was well maintained ,should be no problem.
 
Missing logs = bad.

If you have no logs from that time, you better (or the seller better) have a way to back up what was done maintenance-wise during that time. Compliance with AD's...etc..

I owned a plane built in 1965 with complete logs, so a plane missing logs a decade later isn't acceptable to me.

In my opinion, missing logs = laziness, theft or malfeasance. There's no reason a plane should have ANY missing logs, period. If it does, you better believe it deserves an adjustment to its value.

If you ever sell it in the future, guess what? You need to explain why the logs are not contiguous. It's a much harder sell then if you had complete logs.
 
I'm going to give my stand answer here.

Do yourself a favor and read the FARs and learn what records must be kept. If those required records are missing or unable to be obtained, then it is a no-go.

It's the big repairs, alterations, and AD compliance I'm worried about. I couldn't care less if logs documenting an annual inspection in 1970 are there or not. I would however prefer to see recent years inspection documentation to determine how much recent flying the plane has done and how consistent the airplane has been in or out of annual.

On commodity airplanes like a Cherokee or 172 you can afford to be selective and reject any airplane that doesn't have 100% of the logs, if that's what you want to see. On something rare, like a warbirds or a vintage airplane you can't afford to be picky.

As always, the physical condition of the airplane is the most important part. I've seen airplanes with impeccable logs that aren't worth scrap price and I've seen airplanes with very little documentation that are the best available. Which would you rather have and which is going to have more long term value?
 
So umm... color me ignorant...

But if this is going to be YOUR plane, and you're comfortable with the first 3 of 40 years missing, and the plane is priced appropriately... then forget what people here have to say.

I mean... ideally you'd have 100% of the logs. But you're not asking what is ideal. I can say that I personally would be comfortable with 37 years of maintenance records. I don't know how 3 years of missing logs would make people here afraid regarding AD compliance. I don't know about everyone else, but there's an AD compliance check every annual... If there is record that it has been complied with, you're fine. If there is no record, then you comply. Pretty straightforward. And having all of the logs doesn't guarantee that ADs were complied with. It just guarantees you have a bunch of books.
 
With you folks as the buying public, what would you like to see as the first entry of reconstructed maintenance records?

Here is the deal with 7912T was taken apart due to required maintenance at a place that could not be done. Was placed in storage and never repaired.
Bought as a project, with no logs, Time on the tach matches the last 337 filed (6000+) The last 337 filed was a auto fuel STC dated 6 months prior to the storage and 45 hours less than the tach now.

Engine will get a major.
Airframe will be restored with every thing replaced and all corroded parts replaced.

What would you wish to see as the first entry in the new AD log note book?
 
Tom-D said:
With you folks as the buying public, what would you like to see as the first entry of reconstructed maintenance records?

Here is the deal with 7912T was taken apart due to required maintenance at a place that could not be done. Was placed in storage and never repaired.
Bought as a project, with no logs, Time on the tach matches the last 337 filed (6000+) The last 337 filed was a auto fuel STC dated 6 months prior to the storage and 45 hours less than the tach now.

Engine will get a major.
Airframe will be restored with every thing replaced and all corroded parts replaced.

What would you wish to see as the first entry in the new AD log note book?
Click to expand...

Everyone seems to be more obsessed with whether or not the logbooks are complete, not the content of them. So, are the logbooks complete from day one on this airplane?

But, to answer your question, I'd be fine with a logbook entry and any necessary 337s detailing the work performed as required by FAR 43. The rest of the story can be obtained via a verbal conversation during the purchase process.
 
mondtster said:
Everyone seems to be more obsessed with whether or not the logbooks are complete, not the content of them. So, are the logbooks complete from day one on this airplane?

But, to answer your question, I'd be fine with a logbook entry and any necessary 337s detailing the work performed as required by FAR 43. The rest of the story can be obtained via a verbal conversation during the purchase process.
Click to expand...
I said there were no logs prior to this, so what then?
 
mondtster said:
But, to answer your question, I'd be fine with a logbook entry and any necessary 337s detailing the work performed as required by FAR 43
Click to expand...
FAR 43-A does not require a 337 unless there is a major repair or alteration.

But yes, the first entry would be complete with the work done during the restoration.
 
Radar Contact said:
I agree with that. For my own ignorance on the issue, how did you determine total time? Do they estimate it?
Click to expand...

In my case I believed what was in there. Seeing as the number was 9,000 hours, that was high enough that it wasn't making the airplane more sellable. What was important was that the engine and prop logs were current and complete for the engines and props that were on the plane (which were not original by any stretch of the imagination).

Of course, this is also where the "priced accordingly" comes into play and understanding what you're looking for. If you're looking for a top of the line, low TTAF airplane, then no logs is a logical deal breaker. Certainly when we purchased the 414, complete logs and low TTAF were considered positives from a future resale perspective and were part of the attraction of this particular airframe, but I personally don't care much about TTAF on GA birds. I care about its current condition and the maintenance that has occurred more recently. A higher time plane that's been flown regularly may have some various aging airframe issues, but typically it will be lower maintenance overall.
 
Some times it is easier to just throw the old logs away, buy a used tach with low numbers and go from there.

But we know that never happens don't we :)
 
Tom-D said:
FAR 43-A does not require a 337 unless there is a major repair or alteration.

But yes, the first entry would be complete with the work done during the restoration.
Click to expand...

I know a 337 is only required for a major repair or alteration, but my point was if you did any work that was considered major there had better be one. :)
 
mondtster said:
I know a 337 is only required for a major repair or alteration, but my point was if you did any work that was considered major there had better be one. :)
Click to expand...
On a 150, If it were done correctly, how would you know it was done :)
 
mondtster said:
As with any good repair, your honesty would be the only way. ;)
Click to expand...
Here's the biggie,, most buyers will assume that with 6k hours there better be a bunch of 337 on file. they reinforce that with " you just restored this" why?
But when you can show them an old set of logs all yellow with unreadable entries they get all warm and fuzzy.
 
Another option not mentioned here is go to the FAA and get the CD with everything they have on that plane. Not a complete log but it will/should should show 337's, AD's, actions, accident history, most of the important stuff. I've done that on two aircraft now it is amazing what you will find in there. It is a bit of a slog getting through them though.
 
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