Communications Meltdown?

skyflyer8

skyflyer8

Line Up and Wait
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skyflyr
So I'm checking DUATs for a briefing concerning Green Bay (KGRB), a class C airport, and here's something I've never seen before: basically every frequency except for approach on 119.4 is NOTAMed as out of service right now, even the ATIS. Very temporary I hope? Anyone ever see anything like this? Weather may cancel my flying plans later anyway. Would be strange to get in the plane, try to get ATIS -- nothing -- contact ground -- nothing -- etc. Airport is not NOTAMed closed.

GRB 05/150 GRB COM GC 121.9 OTS
GRB 05/151 GRB COM RCO 121.5/243.0 OTS
GRB 05/152 GRB COM ATIS 124.1 OTS
GRB 05/153 GRB COM LC/CTAF 118.7/257.8 OTS
GRB 05/154 GRB COM CD 121.75 OTS
GRB 05/155 GRB COM RTR 126.55/127.57/338.2 OTS
 
skyflyer8 said:
So I'm checking DUATs for a briefing concerning Green Bay (KGRB), a class C airport, and here's something I've never seen before: basically every frequency except for approach on 119.4 is NOTAMed as out of service right now, even the ATIS. Very temporary I hope? Anyone ever see anything like this? Weather may cancel my flying plans later anyway. Would be strange to get in the plane, try to get ATIS -- nothing -- contact ground -- nothing -- etc. Airport is not NOTAMed closed.

GRB 05/150 GRB COM GC 121.9 OTS
GRB 05/151 GRB COM RCO 121.5/243.0 OTS
GRB 05/152 GRB COM ATIS 124.1 OTS
GRB 05/153 GRB COM LC/CTAF 118.7/257.8 OTS
GRB 05/154 GRB COM CD 121.75 OTS
GRB 05/155 GRB COM RTR 126.55/127.57/338.2 OTS
Click to expand...

The NOTAMs are bogus. All the frequencies at KGRB are working, it's the approach RTRs that are OTS.



KATW OUTAGAMIE COUNTY RGNL 05/022 - COM RTR 126.3 OTS. WIE UNTIL UFN. CREATED: 21 MAY 18:56 2009
KMTW MANITOWOC COUNTY 05/010 - COM RTR 120.2 OTS. WIE UNTIL UFN. CREATED: 21 MAY 18:56 2009
KSUE DOOR COUNTY CHERRYLAND 05/004 - COM RTR 119.25 OTS. WIE UNTIL UFN. CREATED: 21 MAY 18:56 2009
KMNM MENOMINEE-MARINETTE TWIN COUNTY 05/005 - COM RTR 119.5 OTS. WIE UNTIL UFN. CREATED: 21 MAY 18:56 2009
 
skyflyer8 said:
Anyone ever see anything like this?
Click to expand...
Yes at Kirtland AFB/Albuquerque Int'l (KABQ). It was a severed telephone line to the transmitter site. The tower had a couple of single channel radios that were to be used in an emergency. But with the telco out they had no intercall to approach which was up the road on the AFB at the time.
 
no one noticed that there is an RCO frequency using guard??
 
roncachamp said:
Yeah, so?
Click to expand...

47CFR
87.173(b)

I didnt realize talking to an RCO was an emergency/distress situation. Getting an IFR clearance on the ground is never a distress/emergency situation. RCO is also not a class of station assigned to that frequency in the table.

So, why is an RCO using guard. That would suck if someone was clogging the frequency trying to get a clearance while someone else is having an emergency situation.
 
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roncachamp said:
The NOTAMs are bogus. All the frequencies at KGRB are working, it's the approach RTRs that are OTS.
Click to expand...

I did fly, and there were no more wacko NOTAMs by about 5:00. Before getting into the plane, I made sure to try getting ATIS on the handheld and found civilization still existed!
 
EdFred said:
47CFR
87.173(b)

I didnt realize talking to an RCO was an emergency/distress situation. Getting an IFR clearance on the ground is never a distress/emergency situation. RCO is also not a class of station assigned to that frequency in the table.

So, why is an RCO using guard. That would suck if someone was clogging the frequency trying to get a clearance while someone else is having an emergency situation.
Click to expand...

Think maybe the RCO provides one more site monitoring guard? :rolleyes:
 
Well Kate i'm glad you atleast got to fly. Maybe i'll get my BFR in this weekend Wx permitting.
Dave G
 
EdFred said:
47CFR
87.173(b)

I didnt realize talking to an RCO was an emergency/distress situation. Getting an IFR clearance on the ground is never a distress/emergency situation. RCO is also not a class of station assigned to that frequency in the table.

So, why is an RCO using guard. That would suck if someone was clogging the frequency trying to get a clearance while someone else is having an emergency situation.
Click to expand...

RCOs have dedicated frequencies, it's not like the transceiver in your aircraft where you select a frequency. The 121.5/243.0 RCO at GRB became an RCO when GRB AFSS moved to Virginia.
 
EdFred said:
So, why is an RCO using guard. That would suck if someone was clogging the frequency trying to get a clearance while someone else is having an emergency situation.
Click to expand...
RCO = "remote communications outlet" (or something like that). It says nothing about the use to which it's put. In this case, it's a remote communications facility to allow receiving and transmitting on guard from somewhere else. Just because it's an RCO doesn't mean it's used for clearance delivery or FSS communication.
 
jmaynard said:
RCO = "remote communications outlet" (or something like that). It says nothing about the use to which it's put. In this case, it's a remote communications facility to allow receiving and transmitting on guard from somewhere else. Just because it's an RCO doesn't mean it's used for clearance delivery or FSS communication.
Click to expand...

RCOs are used for clearance delivery and FSS
communications. RCOs are a tool of FSS, while
RTRs are a tool of terminal ATC facilities and
RCAGs are a tool of enroute ATC facilities.


REMOTE COMMUNICATIONS OUTLET- An
unmanned communications facility remotely controlled
by air traffic personnel. RCOs serve FSSs.
RTRs serve terminal ATC facilities. An RCO or RTR
may be UHF or VHF and will extend the
communication range of the air traffic facility. There
are several classes of RCOs and RTRs. The class is
determined by the number of transmitters or
receivers. Classes A through G are used primarily for
air/ground purposes. RCO and RTR class O
facilities are nonprotected outlets subject to
undetected and prolonged outages. RCO (O's) and
RTR (O's) were established for the express purpose
of providing ground‐to‐ground communications
between air traffic control specialists and pilots
located at a satellite airport for delivering en route
clearances, issuing departure authorizations, and
acknowledging instrument flight rules cancellations
or departure/landing times. As a secondary function,
they may be used for advisory purposes whenever the
aircraft is below the coverage of the primary
air/ground frequency.


REMOTE COMMUNICATIONS AIR/GROUND
FACILITY- An unmanned VHF/UHF transmitter/
receiver facility which is used to expand ARTCC
air/ground communications coverage and to facilitate
direct contact between pilots and controllers. RCAG
facilities are sometimes not equipped with emergency
frequencies 121.5 MHz and 243.0 MHz.
 
jmaynard said:
RCO = "remote communications outlet" (or something like that). It says nothing about the use to which it's put. In this case, it's a remote communications facility to allow receiving and transmitting on guard from somewhere else. Just because it's an RCO doesn't mean it's used for clearance delivery or FSS communication.
Click to expand...

If you look at the table in 47CFR that frequency does not show it is to be assigned to an RCO or GCO - so why is it assigned to an RCO ?
 
EdFred said:
If you look at the table in 47CFR that frequency does not show it is to be assigned to an RCO or GCO - so why is it assigned to an RCO ?
Click to expand...

Because the FSS moved and left their transceivers behind.
 
roncachamp said:
Because the FSS moved and left their transceivers behind.
Click to expand...

Going against 47CFR....got it. Still waiting for the day someone tries getting clearance on guard and steps on a mayday call....awesome.
 
EdFred said:
Going against 47CFR....got it. Still waiting for the day someone tries getting clearance on guard and steps on a mayday call....awesome.
Click to expand...

Why would someone try to get a clearance on guard?
 
roncachamp said:
Why would someone try to get a clearance on guard?
Click to expand...

I don't know....maybe because 121.5 is listed as an RCO frequency. I generally try and get a clearance on those (RCOs) as opposed to trying to pick up a clearance on say......122.75.
 
EdFred said:
I don't know....maybe because 121.5 is listed as an RCO frequency. I generally try and get a clearance on those (RCOs) as opposed to trying to pick up a clearance on say......122.75.
Click to expand...

Let me rephrase the question. Why would someone try to get a clearance on the 121.5/243.0 RCO instead of the 122.55 RCO?
 
roncachamp said:
Let me rephrase the question. Why would someone try to get a clearance on the 121.5/243.0 RCO instead of the 122.55 RCO?
Click to expand...

Because 121.5 is also listed as an RCO frequency?
 
EdFred said:
Because 121.5 is also listed as an RCO frequency?
Click to expand...

121.5 isn't listed as an RCO frequency for GRB FSS or any other
FSS. 121.5 and 243.0 are available at all FSSs, ATCTs, TRACONs,
and ARTCCs unless indicated as not available.


From the A/FD:

FLIGHT SERVICE STATION COMMUNICATION FREQUENCIES

VHF frequencies available at Flight Service Stations and at their
remote communication outlets (RCO’s) are listed below for the
coverage of this volume. Frequencies in bold type are available
all altitudes but recommended for use FL180 and above. ‘‘T’’
indicates transmit only and ‘‘R’’ indicates receive only. RCO’s
available at NAVAIDS are listed after the NAVAID name. RCO’s
not at NAVAID’s are listed by name.

GREEN BAY AFSS

ASHLAND RCO 122.25
BLACK RIVER FALLS RCO 122.5
CHIPPEWA RCO 123.65
DELLS VORTAC 117.0T 122.1R
EAU CLAIRE RCO 122.65 123.6
ESCANABA RCO 122.3
FALLS VOR/DME 110.0T 122.1R
FOND DU LAC RCO 122.5
GREEN BAY RCO 122.2 122.55
HANCOCK RCO 122.525 123.65
HAYWARD VOR/DME 113.4T 122.1R
IRON MOUNTAIN VOR/DME 111.2T 122.1R
IRONWOOD RCO 122.3
JANESVILLE VOR/DME 114.3T 122.1R
KENOSHA VOR/DME 109.2T 123.6R
LA CROSSE RCO 122.2 122.35
LONE ROCK RCO 122.35
MACKINAC ISLAND RCO 122.35
MADISON RCO 122.6
MARSHFIELD RCO 122.55
MANITOWOC VOR/DME 111.0T 122.1R
MENOMINEE VOR/DME 109.6T 122.1R
MILWAUKEE RCO 122.4 122.65
MOSINEE RCO 122.525
NEWBERRY RCO 122.4
OSHKOSH VORTAC 111.8T 122.1R 122.25
PHILLIPS RCO 122.05
PLATTEVILLE RCO 122.5
PRAIRIE DU CHIEN RCO 122.25
RHINELANDER VORTAC 109.2T 122.1R
RICE LAKE RCO 122.3
SAULT STE MARIE VOR/DME 112.2T 122.1R
SAWYER RCO 123.6
SCHOOLCRAFT COUNTY RCO 122.25
SIREN VOR/DME 109.4T 122.1R
STEVENS POINT VORTAC 110.6T 122.1R
TIMMERMAN VOR/DME 112.5T 123.6R
WAUSAU RCO 122.4
WEST BEND VOR 109.8T 122.1R
WISCONSIN RAPIDS RCO 122.45
WOODRUFF RCO 122.6
 
Sorry, I was just getting ALL available information for my flight, and since the notams popped up, even if bogus, listed 121.5 as an RCO frequency - which you have verified it is.

So, since it is a frequency that is listed - even if one has to really really dig for it, then I should be able to use it.
 
EdFred said:
Sorry, I was just getting ALL available information for my flight, and since the notams popped up, even if bogus, listed 121.5 as an RCO frequency - which you have verified it is.

So, since it is a frequency that is listed - even if one has to really really dig for it, then I should be able to use it.
Click to expand...

121.5 is not a listed frequency for GRB FSS or any other FSS. All FSSs, as well as all ATC facilities, have 121.5 available unless it's shown as being unavailable in the A/FD or by NOTAM. You're free to use it for it's proper purpose, emergency and distress situations, not for clearance delivery.
 
GRB RCO 121.5/243.0

It is listed as an RCO.
 
Listed in the NOTAMs as an RCO, ergo, an RCO.
 
EdFred said:
Listed in the NOTAMs as an RCO, ergo, an RCO.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is an RCO, I didn't say it was listed as an RCO. It's shown in the NOTAM as an RCO out of service because it's an RCO and it's not working. You seem to have quite a problem grasping this. Why?
 
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I am confused. Is it an RCO or is it not an RCO?

Moreover, can 121.5 be an RCO? Roncachamp, you're confusing me.
 
I think it's a valid listing of an invalid frequency. :rolleyes:
 
EdFred said:
I think it's a valid listing of an invalid frequency. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

and therefore, as a pilot, you can ignore the invalid frequency, but not the valid listing. But file an ASRS first :D
 
gkainz said:
and therefore, as a pilot, you can ignore the invalid frequency, but not the valid listing. But file an ASRS first :D
Click to expand...

but you have to know that it was invalid to begin with.
 
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