Communication Questions.

Snaggletooth

Snaggletooth

Line Up and Wait
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Dustin
Me and a friend are talking about renting the two 172's that we did our training in (he did his training at a different flight school and Airport), then flying out and bout the local area. So my questions is this...

While we are both out flying, can we tune our radios to an oddball freq to talk so we don't just talk over the CTAF? I was thinking we could just have the CTAF in the Comm 2 slot so we still hear all the Communications on the CTAF.
 
122.75 is the pilot to pilot frequency. Why you would want another aircraft in the vicinity escapes me, unless you want to try some formation flying. For the latter I would get some training first, there are a lot of issues that are not apparent if you haven't done it.
 
Yes. You're supposed to use 122.75 for air-air comm in this case. 123.45 is reserved for other uses and should not be used, even though it often is. Generally, the FCC ignores this, but sometimes they go after people and fine them $10k for improperly using 123.45. See AIM 4-1-11 here.
 
sba55 said:
Yes. You're supposed to use 122.75 for air-air comm in this case. 123.45 is reserved for other uses and should not be used, even though it often is. Generally, the FCC ignores this, but sometimes they go after people and fine them $10k for improperly using 123.45. See AIM 4-1-11 here.
Click to expand...

I was about to cut/paste the AIM reference, too. I've flown with guys who use 123.45 and been amazed at all the chatter on there. There are also a couple of seasonal (Thanksgiving/Christmas/New Year) events around here where pilots or even flight-schools offer sight-seeing flights - they typically use 123.45 and announce positions that way.

So, even though you're not supposed to use it, 123.45 gets used a LOT.

*** Probably, since so few people know to use 122.75, it'll be pretty quiet.

>>
Air-to-air communication
(private fixed wing aircraft). ​
122.750 ​
Air-to-air communications
(general aviation helicopters). ​
123.025 ​
Aviation instruction, Glider, Hot Air Balloon (not to be used for advisory service).
123.300
123.500 ​

<<


---


Edit: The formation flying thing is another story.
 
sba55 said:
Yes. You're supposed to use 122.75 for air-air comm in this case. 123.45 is reserved for other uses and should not be used, even though it often is. Generally, the FCC ignores this, but sometimes they go after people and fine them $10k for improperly using 123.45. See AIM 4-1-11 here.
Click to expand...

I see where it says 22.75 is specifically reserved for private fixed wing aircraft air-to-air communication, but I missed where it made any mention of 23.45. Did I not read far enough?
 
If I'm tooling around, or even on an uneventful cross-country, I'll usually tune in 122.75 just to see what I hear - it's really fun to tune it in coming out of OSH and hear people talk about all of the different directions they are going, where they're stopping, how long it will take them to get there, etc.
 
Snaggletooth said:
Yeah, we were wanting to do Formation Flying.
Click to expand...
There are more and more formation flying clinics being run by FAST- and FFI-associated formation groups, and what radio frequencies to use is just one small part of what you learn there. Formation flying is highly demanding of specialized knowledge, skill, planning, preparation, and discipline, as well as highly unforgiving of any lack of any of those. I suggest contacting some of the formation flying training folks and getting some proper training before you try it again, because things can go wrong faster and worse than anyone without serious formation training can imagine. If anyone's interested in learning about what it takes to become a formation pilot, read these articles:

Up Close and Personal: Formation Flying (Jennifer Whitley, AvWeb)
Deceptive Form (Scott Spangler, AOPA Pilot)
Formation Flying (Barry Schiff, AOPA Pilot)
A Continuous Near-Miss (Alton Marsh, AOPA Pilot)

If you want to do it, contact:
For warbirds (including T-34's and other military trainers), Formation And Safety Team (FAST) via your type club.

For civilian types (especially Grumman, Swift, and RV):
Stu McCurdy
Formation Flight, Inc.
3509 Gattis School Road
Round Rock, Texas 78664
​
 
We did the formation clinic for the Cherokees to Oshkosh flight that wasn't. Learned more from those guys than I believed existed. The OP should get some training, there really are a lot of issues, all of which can bite one in the six.
 
Teller1900 said:
I see where it says 22.75 is specifically reserved for private fixed wing aircraft air-to-air communication, but I missed where it made any mention of 23.45. Did I not read far enough?
Click to expand...
Exactly. You've read the entire list of authorized freq's for this use, and anything else is prohibited. FWIW, the FCC has reserved 123.45 as a frequency for test operations by Boeing, Lockheed, and other operators and as with any frequency in the aeronautical VHF band of 118-137 MHz, nonemergency use of that freq by anyone not specifically authorized is prohibited by FCC regulations. You can find all that on the FCC's web site if you look hard enough.
 
steingar said:
We did the formation clinic for the Cherokees to Oshkosh flight that wasn't. Learned more from those guys than I believed existed. The OP should get some training, there really are a lot of issues, all of which can bite one in the six.
Click to expand...
If you look at the NTSB reports, there are always several fatal midairs involving attempted formation flight by untrained/unqualified pilots. This stuff really ain't easy to do safely without that training.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you look at the NTSB reports, there are always several fatal midairs involving attempted formation flight by untrained/unqualified pilots. This stuff really ain't easy to do safely without that training.
Click to expand...

Yup. When Ron and I agree, you know you're onto something.
 
I was amused to find out that 123.45 actually is the air-to-air frequency in oceanic airspace.
 
Learning yourself formation flying ain't likely to be as bad as learning yourself aerobatics. But...
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Learning yourself formation flying ain't likely to be as bad as learning yourself aerobatics. But...
Click to expand...

My friend and I want to try formation aerobatics this weekend, but haven't had any training in either.

Watch for a full writeup with pics and vids!
 
Everskyward said:
I was amused to find out that 123.45 actually is the air-to-air frequency in oceanic airspace.
Click to expand...
Yep, although AFaIK there is no enforcement of any frequency misuse over international waters so the point seems kinda moot.

For that matter I've never actually heard of any action taken against an airborne pilot for unauthorized use of 123.45 or any other comm frequency if there wasn't any conflict with ATC. Felix, do you have any evidence of this to back your statement?
 
Jack Spectre said:
My friend and I want to try formation aerobatics this weekend, but haven't had any training in either.

Watch for a full writeup with pics and vids!
Click to expand...
As long as you both make the same mistakes at exactly the same time and keep a lot of air between you and the ground, there shouldn't be any problems, right?:D
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Learning yourself formation flying ain't likely to be as bad as learning yourself aerobatics. But...
Click to expand...
I'd put it the other way around. WRT acro, if you start with a relatively unbreakable airplane and stay high you can get away with a lot. Plus for most folks, acro risks tend to be somewhat self mitigating in that you're likely to scare yourself silly before getting into any serious problems (again assuming an appropriate aircraft and lots of room below). With formation work you're more likely to be FD&H (fat, dumb, happy) right up to the point where the other plane switches from a little dot to something too big to miss with a 30 Kt closing speed. That said, IMO if you do all you can to ensure that your plane doesn't ever come closer to your buddy's than 500-1000 ft and you avoid tail chases you'll probably be lucky enough to avoid swapping paint or worse.
 
I different friend of mine was doing formations and almost had a mid-air because he was taking photos on his phone of the other plane, and texting them while flying.

what was that saying about never to fly with a Pilot bolder than you are?
 
Just did some formation flying 2wks ago in Cubs. I was not flying; I was done for the day and the instructor formed up on another one of the school's Cubs for the flight back to the coop.

I was impressed by the amount of work flying #2 took. I would never undertake that without training. Never. You could easily get yourself killed.
 
gismo said:
I'd put it the other way around. WRT acro, if you start with a relatively unbreakable airplane and stay high you can get away with a lot. Plus for most folks, acro risks tend to be somewhat self mitigating in that you're likely to scare yourself silly before getting into any serious problems (again assuming an appropriate aircraft and lots of room below). With formation work you're more likely to be FD&H (fat, dumb, happy) right up to the point where the other plane switches from a little dot to something too big to miss with a 30 Kt closing speed. That said, IMO if you do all you can to ensure that your plane doesn't ever come closer to your buddy's than 500-1000 ft and you avoid tail chases you'll probably be lucky enough to avoid swapping paint or worse.
Click to expand...

But what if I want to roll the Cherokee this weekend? :aureola:
 
Nix the formation flying until you've had the training. However, flying along 1000 feet from your buddy is doable and pretty dang fun.
 
Here is a website with materials for the Cessnas2Oshkosh training. Scroll down about 1/3 of the way. BTW, I also suggest getting some formal training yourself before trying anything this close. I took the training class 4 times and still get scared.
https://www.cessnas2oshkosh.com/training2010.aspx
 
I would never try to get in close. Even a low time pilot like my self knows that would be very dumb.

1000ft separation, would be cool. 500ft would be a bit to close for my liking. We're in Cessna's, not Mustangs. lol
 
Snaggletooth said:
I would never try to get in close. Even a low time pilot like my self knows that would be very dumb.

1000ft separation, would be cool. 500ft would be a bit to close for my liking. We're in Cessna's, not Mustangs. lol
Click to expand...
Make that vertical separation and you're good to go.
 
A buddy and I were flying together from the Denver area to Cheyenne for a dinner. Him in a Mooney and I in the Cherokee 6. It was twilight, and we were set up a 1/2 mile apart. Then, the tower in Cheyenne asked if we wanted to land as a flight.:hairraise: My buddy replied "No thanks. We're noobs," while I was thinking NFW!
 
Best way to start learning formation is to have pilots who KNOW what they are doing, and ride as observers, then have them as observers/safety instructors along side of you. Also, that 1000' idea can go bad just as quickly... And yes, I've done some formation training with a group of much older guys, but still consider myself a relative novice.

Ryan
 
COFlyBoy said:
Nix the formation flying until you've had the training. However, flying along 1000 feet from your buddy is doable and pretty dang fun.
Click to expand...
And it's still formation flying. As discussed in the links I posted, that 1000 feet can disappear faster than you know what happened. Either get the training or ride with someone who has it or take a chance of ending up on the NTSB web site.
 
gismo said:
Yep, although AFaIK there is no enforcement of any frequency misuse over international waters so the point seems kinda moot.
Click to expand...
Just so we're all clear, 123.45 is officially the air-to-air freq in Oceanic airspace. It's not just a case of nobody enforcing a rule against its use out there over the big pond.
 
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