Common Regulation Misunderstandings and General Safety Concerns

ajstoner21

ajstoner21

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Oct 31, 2010
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Fort Worth, TX
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Display name:
Andrew
Hello POA,
I may be opening a can of worms, here, but I want to try to start a little safety/awareness campaign.

I am sure there are a ton of regulations out there being broken daily just because people don't fully understand them and don't care to take the effort to find out. I'm sure there are also alot of safety issues out there that people don't bother to take care of with random excuses like "oh, i'll never be ramp checked, they'll never know"

I know the FAA has considered changing the way Flight Instructor certificates are renewed because of how vital they are to aviation safety. However, in my opinion the problem isnt the instructors (although we may have all had a bad one or two in the past), the problem is pilots who don't seek out instructors, or don't seek out the new updated knowledge.

I know organizations like AOPA do an amazing job making new important regulations known, and routinely do safety seminars, but, I would like to try to do my part too. I want to try to come up with some kind of poster that I can put up at all the local airports. (Maybe if you all like it, you can post it around your airport too)

So, my question to you pilots and instructors out there.

What are some of the most commonly misunderstood regulations out there that need clarified?

What are the most broken regulations out there?

What other general unsafe things should be brought to light?

Seems a lot of people fear instructors and fear things such as a flight review. They think they can "fail" a flight review, when all it is really intended to do is make sure you brush up on weak areas to stay safe and keep up with new regulations.

How can we make instructors more accessible? (not feared or dreaded)
 
You will be more productive if you focus on doing things right vs wrong instead of technical compliance with some arcane regulation that sparks pages of discussion about what it really legally means.
 
ajstoner21 said:
...the problem is pilots who don't seek out instructors, or don't seek out the new updated knowledge.
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Sounds like the old leading a horse to water problem.

Maybe I'm missing something, but don't the FAAST and WINGS programs cover what you're talking about?
 
Trapper John said:
Sounds like the old leading a horse to water problem.

Maybe I'm missing something, but don't the FAAST and WINGS programs cover what you're talking about?
Click to expand...


I have personally never seen any FAAST or WINGS program things unless I actively looked for it, that is, looked online somewhere for it.

I want to post posters in FBO's, or terminals or something, make it able to be seen accidentally.

I'm trying to make things more available for the pilots who dont participate in that stuff. Something they can see by just going to the airport to fly.
 
Graueradler said:
You will be more productive if you focus on doing things right vs wrong instead of technical compliance with some arcane regulation that sparks pages of discussion about what it really legally means.
Click to expand...


I'm not necessarily trying to spark discussion, or focus on "compliance with some arcane regulation", I want to have a chance at allowing the "wrong" pilot to see something at the airport by accident that might open an eye or two. Maybe have some bulleted items that might be covered by a safety seminar or something that these pilots don't care to go to.

The problem isnt the pilots who participate in these online forums, the WINGS programs, or the safety seminars, the problem is the pilots who don't.
 
ajstoner21 said:
The problem isnt the pilots who participate in these online forums, the WINGS programs, or the safety seminars, the problem is the pilots who don't.
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You generally can't save people from themselves. And I think that goes double for pilots...
 
ajstoner21 said:
What are some of the most commonly misunderstood regulations out there that need clarified?
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In the spirit of what I think you originally intended with this thread I'll mention the cloud clearance requirements. They aren't mainly there as a buffer to keep you from blundering into a cloud and losing control. They are there to allow airplanes which emerge from the cloud to see you or for you to see them. The reason the distances increase above 10,000' MSL is because that is where the speed limit 250 knots below 10,000 is no longer in effect. I mention this reg because it's one I had a misconception about for a long time until the light bulb suddenly went on. :idea:
 
How about the clock requirement for IFR...
 
stagecoachco said:
How about the clock requirement for IFR...
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Bwahaha. You're bad. ;) (I still can't believe my innocuous question started that thread!)

I'm surprised no one has brought up TPA entries or "Any traffic... Please advise."

ROFLMAO! :thumbsup:
 
I would work backwards from the ntsb reports (in order to focus on what matters).
First, look at what is causing the crashes.
Then look at what regs were broken in order to get to arrive at each crash.
Go from there.
I think you will find it a bit mundane. Sadly, its a groundhog-day sort of thing and no one has found a solution. I applaud your efforts.
 
I appreciate the feed back, keep them coming!

General comment though,
Not that I dont agree, that some regulations are dumb... but if you start ignoring one because of your personal opinion, how soon till you ignore a "dumb" one that turns out to be a fatal mistake? I would say all regulations are there for a reason, whether we know the reason or not.
 
ajstoner21 said:
General comment though,
Not that I dont agree, that some regulations are dumb... but if you start ignoring one because of your personal opinion, how soon till you ignore a "dumb" one that turns out to be a fatal mistake? I would say all regulations are there for a reason, whether we know the reason or not.
Click to expand...

If you're going to make posters, you're going to have to keep your message short and sweet. So, I'd concentrate on the "stuff that's most likely to kill you" and forget quoting chapter and verse from the FARs, especially since the audience you've identified as needing help is the bunch that doesn't care much to read the FARs in the first place.

Let's say you wanted to do a poster about pre-flight and before takeoff checklists. You only have room to list 4 things. What are the 4 things you're going to put on the poster?
 
Hmm. I see your point about needing to be short and sweet...

preflight/before take off...
1. fuel (have enough? caps back on after the fuel truck left?)
2. oil (have enough? dipstick back in/tight?)
3. controls check (ever forget a control lock? yoke/rudder?)
4. tire condition


The above is all personal experience, with the exception of fuel.
I have found that the previous pilot had loosened the oil dipstick housing so bad, it was leaking oil (not the part where dipstick goes into the thing, where the "thing" goes into the engine. I know... technical term there).

Due to a preflight interuption, I put a yoke control lock back in and forgot.... (no wind, so not really a improper taxi technique). Run up/before take off caught it.

I have taken off where the tire looked bad, but "was fine the last time" (I know, complacency can kill.) and it blew out on landing.

I have learned valuable lessons from personal experience but, gotta be able to learn from others, right? Won't live long enough to make all the mistakes yourself.
 
In my experience giving flight reviews and training for advanced certificates/ratings, the following are the regs most likely to need review/explanation:

Inoperative equipment: 91.213(d)
IFR currency, especially when you can/can't count approaches: 61.57(d)
Logging PIC time when not the only pilot aboard: 61.51(e)
Private pilot privileges/limitations involving reimbursement: 61.113
Logging GPS updates: 43.9 and Appendix A of Part 43
IFR lost comm: 91.185
 
Aviation is one of those things where you have to have, a) good judgement and common sense, and b) an understanding of the regs. In my opinion, that's the order they should be in. Some will disagree with me on that. And a) doesn't relieve you of b), but b) won't save you if you don't have a).

Some of our regulations are indeed arcane. I think for the most part conciencious pilots adhere to the basic ones, and the ones they tend to blow are the obscure ones they aren't aware of or don't understand.
 
Many years ago, Richard Bach wrote a piece for Flying magazine titled; "Found at Pharisee". It was republished in his book "A Gift of Wings". It was the first thing I thought of when I read the OP. Anyone else remember the story?
 
In addition to what I said a couple of posts above, there are a lot of regs which contain a lot of arcane stuff you hardly ever (and may never) use. Those are often the stuff of those angels/pinheads discussions we have all the time on these internet discussion boards, but folks rarely if ever reach a position where the requirements of those obscure regs really comes into play, so even if folks don't fully understand what the FAA thinks those regs mean, it doesn't really matter. Further, in most cases, simple common sense prevents folks from doing stuff like going round and round a traffic pattern at 400 feet under a 500-foot overcast in 1 mile vis doing touch and go's, or counting for IFR currency approaches they fly in clear weather and break off five miles out, even if they don't know exactly which reg makes that illegal.
 
RickH said:
Many years ago, Richard Bach wrote a piece for Flying magazine titled; "Found at Pharisee". It was republished in his book "A Gift of Wings". It was the first thing I thought of when I read the OP. Anyone else remember the story?
Click to expand...
I know I've read it and the title is familiar but I don't recall the gist of the story. Is this the one where there's sort of a cult/commune for young pilots learning to fly? BTW my all time favorite from that book is "Cat". Chokes me up a little just thinking about it.
 
Random question came to me today about pilot currency to carry passengers.

Lets put you all to the test!

Do three touch and go night landings satisfy the requirement to be night current?

Does being night current mean you are day current?

Does being day current mean you are night current?
 
ajstoner21 said:
Random question came to me today about pilot currency to carry passengers.

Lets put you all to the test!

Do three touch and go night landings satisfy the requirement to be night current?

Does being night current mean you are day current?

Does being day current mean you are night current?
Click to expand...

They're so cute when they're that age...
 
I'm going to look it up now
 
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ajstoner21 said:
Comments like that really aren't helpful. :dunno: I'm going to take that as, you don't know the answer....
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And you are wrong. You haven't even passed the instrument check ride.

The comment is helpful if you begin to understand that you don't understand the problem. Otherwise, it's your loss.

It's easy to walk into a room and say that every one is wrong. It is much, much harder to walk into a room and learn what is happening and go from there. You obviously assume others don't know the regs. That's your privilege, but that doesn't mean you're correct. Good luck.
 
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Clark,
You are entitled to your opinion. I dont believe I ever claimed "everyone is wrong"

but I know for a fact that SOME (not all) don't know the regs that are appropriate to their certificate level, and some don't care. I am sure I don't know all the regs, and I won't claim to. But, I will say that I will always try to find out what I don't know.
 
ajstoner21 said:
Clark,
You are entitled to your opinion. I dont believe I ever claimed "everyone is wrong"

but I know for a fact that SOME (not all) don't know the regs that are appropriate to their certificate level, and some don't care. I am sure I don't know all the regs, and I won't claim to. But, I will say that I will always try to find out what I don't know.
Click to expand...

Son, I never typed that you claimed that everyone is wrong. Do try to pay attention. You obviously think that some folks are deficient. It really isn't for you to say just because you've passed a few tests now is it? Good luck.
 
ajstoner21 said:
What are some of the most commonly misunderstood regulations out there that need clarified?

What are the most broken regulations out there?
Click to expand...

Logging time - But the best poster for that would be to print out EdFred's flowchart, which I believe is linked to in his signature.

Cloud clearance requirements, like Mari said.

VFR cruising altitudes - There seems to be an attitude among some VFR pilots that "I'm VFR, I can do whatever I want to."

For that matter, many don't seem to understand that the function of ATC is to separate IFR aircraft from IFR aircraft. Some VFR types think that ATC won't let an IFR aircraft fly into 'em. See "cloud clearance requirements" above.
 
ajstoner21 said:
Random question came to me today about pilot currency to carry passengers.

Lets put you all to the test!

Do three touch and go night landings satisfy the requirement to be night current?
Click to expand...

No.
ajstoner21 said:
Does being night current mean you are day current?
Click to expand...
Yes.
ajstoner21 said:
Does being day current mean you are night current?
Click to expand...

No.

How about this one:

Pilot does his preflight with the last remaining light of day since it's easier, and launches before sunset for a night-currency flight.

Assuming Civil Twilight is over the second his wheels leave the pavement on the takeoff roll, how many landings does he have to make to become night-current?
 
denverpilot said:
How about this one:

Pilot does his preflight with the last remaining light of day since it's easier, and launches before sunset for a night-currency flight.

Assuming Civil Twilight is over the second his wheels leave the pavement on the takeoff roll, how many landings does he have to make to become night-current?
Click to expand...

Depends on how much time there is between evening civil twilight and 1 hour after sunset on that particular day.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Depends on how much time there is between evening civil twilight and 1 hour after sunset on that particular day.
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Kent got "Round 1" of the question right. Okay, let's say the second he left the ground it's "Night" by all definitions instead... how many landings?
 
denverpilot said:
Kent got "Round 1" of the question right. Okay, let's say the second he left the ground it's "Night" by all definitions instead... how many landings?
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Well, two possible answers here, depending on the FAA's definition of "Takeoff" which is not defined in FAR 1.1, 61.1, or 61.57. If you consider "making a takeoff" to simply mean lifting off, the answer would be three.

However, if you play it a little safer reg-wise and consider the entire process including the roll to be the takeoff, you'll need to do four landings - To get full currency, you must perform "at least three takeoffs and three landings," not just three landings. So, since the takeoff roll wasn't performed at night, you'll end up with one "day" takeoff, three night takeoffs, and four night landings.
 
Heh... you got it... or the part I was looking for anyway. The "day" takeoff doesn't meet the requirements for night currency.

I see people do this one allllll the time 'round here. Take off right at "darK", land three times, put the aircraft away.

Me? I just go do like 6-8. Need the practice anyway. Actually my rule is once I get a great or really good one, at or beyond number four... time to put the airplane away with a smile on my face.

'Cause I *know* if I go do, "Just one more...", it'll be the ugliest one of the night. ;)
 
One thing that may lead people to forget night takeoff currency is that logbooks often don't have a column for number of takeoffs.
 
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ajstoner21 said:
Random question came to me today about pilot currency to carry passengers.

Lets put you all to the test!

Do three touch and go night landings satisfy the requirement to be night current?

Does being night current mean you are day current?

Does being day current mean you are night current?
Click to expand...

Touch and Go's don't count for any currency requirements. Unless, of course, you have one of those aircraft where the designer screwed up and put the tailwheel on the wrong end.
 
Palmpilot said:
One thing that may lead people to forget night takeoff currency is that logbooks oftren don't have a column for number of takeoffs.
Click to expand...

Which is why I note them in the comments for night currency.

John
 
While the logging of takeoffs is a requirement for currency (day as well as night), few logbooks have a place to put it (other than Remarks) and I've never heard of the FAA busting anyone only for not having enough night takeoffs in their logbook. Consider it one of those things that will add to your troubles if you otherwise bring yourself to their attention (especially if you do so on a night flight), but never be an issue on its own.
 
Now, if you do your 3 T&Gs at night, you are day current, but not night current. Technically there's no such thing as "day" currency. You simply need to have 3 t/o and 3 landings in the last 90 days (without restriction as to time) to carry passengers. TW and Night have more restrictive requirements.

It's not actually possible to be current for "night" (I use quotes because of the number of definitions!) or TW and not be current for day-nosewheel.
 
jsstevens said:
Which is why I note them in the comments for night currency.

John
Click to expand...

The other thing I note in the remarks for night is T&G vs. S&G or Full Stop...sometimes I just want to bang out some landings, and having 9,000' of runway means that I'll do 2 stop-and-gos, then several T&Gs before a full stop at the end.
 
RickH said:
Many years ago, Richard Bach wrote a piece for Flying magazine titled; "Found at Pharisee". It was republished in his book "A Gift of Wings". It was the first thing I thought of when I read the OP. Anyone else remember the story?
Click to expand...

It was actually a two-parter. The other one was "School For Perfection".

jw
 
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