Commercial training and Simulator

genna

genna

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So, the minimum requirements for CPL -- among others -- are 250 hours total, of which 50 can be in an approved simulator.

Is this something that has to be monitored and signed off by a CFI or can I just go and fly around in a simulator?

Also, what would you do that is useful in a simulator for CPL training? I understand that besides the minimums, there are some maneuvers that need to be learned, but that doesn't seem like something that is simulator friendly.

Background: I'm PPL+IR with about 180 hours total. By the time I finish other CPL requirements, I'd have about 200 total time +10 hours in a simulator(IR training). So I could theoretically save some $$ with 40 hours on the simulator. I have no desire to get an ATP.
 
Check the reg on logging...
61.51(g)(4) A person can use time in a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device for acquiring instrument aeronautical experience for a pilot certificate, rating, or instrument recency experience, provided an authorized instructor is present to observe that time and signs the person's logbook or training record to verify the time and the content of the training session.
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The simulator training is going to be barely beneficial to you. Considering the commercial maneuvers are almost all visual maneuvers that require reference to the ground. Maybe it would help you with lazy eights, chandelles, and unusual attitudes but thats about it. If you just want to burn time in the sim to help get to the hour mark while saving some coin, get some hours in the sim tightening up your instrument skills, we can all use some good instrument training and refreshing. If you are a good stick, it shouldn't take long to learn the commercial maneuvers and perform them to commercial standards.
 
Doubt the sim will help,your going to need practice on the commercial maneuvers ,if you haven't been doing them.
 
frfly172 said:
Doubt the sim will help,your going to need practice on the commercial maneuvers ,if you haven't been doing them.
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Yeah, I kind of thought that. I was hoping that I could use Sim for something useful to speed the process up and save some $$, but I guess other than a few instrument refresh flights on it, it is mostly useless.

As far as maneuvers, i'm going to assume that I do not need 50 hours of that :).
 
It's usually cheaper to just go fly in a real plane if you are time building.

Most sims are $50-75 and then you have to pay for the instructor.

The most cost effective thing to do is to split time with another pilot and rotate under the hood. That way you can build time for $50-60 an hour (assuming you have a cheap rental).

I might be interested in meeting up and doing some of that if you want. Shoot me a PM.
 
Bonchie said:
It's usually cheaper to just go fly in a real plane if you are time building.

Most sims are $50-75 and then you have to pay for the instructor.

The most cost effective thing to do is to split time with another pilot and rotate under the hood. That way you can build time for $50-60 an hour (assuming you have a cheap rental).

I might be interested in meeting up and doing some of that if you want. Shoot me a PM.
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Sim here is $59, instructor $59.. total 120.. Cessna 172s $154(with taxes). But yes, the difference though exists is not huge. This is why I asked my original question if an instructor is needed.

It is rather an interesting situation here. Unlike the instrument training where you always need a second person(instructor or safety pilot), in commercial there are no actual instruction requirements. That means I can fly a plane and do with it anything I want and that will take care of the 250 hours I need to log. But if I do the same in SIM, I now need an instructor to sign off on what i'm doing. Seems like there is a disconnect here.


Thanks Anthony, I will PM you.
 
$154? Man that's high.

The Cherokee I rent is $105 an hour on block (but he gives me that rate regardless now).
 
Bonchie said:
$154? Man that's high.

The Cherokee I rent is $105 an hour on block (but he gives me that rate regardless now).
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yeah, I know..

If I do cash, block.. it's about 140. But it does have IFR GPS :).
 
Bonchie said:
It's usually cheaper to just go fly in a real plane if you are time building.

Most sims are $50-75 and then you have to pay for the instructor.

The most cost effective thing to do is to split time with another pilot and rotate under the hood. That way you can build time for $50-60 an hour (assuming you have a cheap rental).

I might be interested in meeting up and doing some of that if you want. Shoot me a PM.
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Or go dabble in gliders, probably not that much of a price diff, it'll look tons better on your resume and will be much more fun.
 
James331 said:
Or go dabble in gliders, probably not that much of a price diff, it'll look tons better on your resume and will be much more fun.
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I live in DC. You can't just go down the road and jump in a glider.
 
MikeELP said:
Go read 61.129(a)(3) and get back to us. :wink2:
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Training is required to know the maneuvers and have 10 hours complex and 10 hours instrument.

With the exception of instrument(that I already covered) and a few hours to get complex endorsement, there is NO requirement for a second person in the plane(CFI or otherwise)

So again, out of 250 hours, only about 35-40 hours is required dual and that includes primary training.
 
maybe i'm missing something but here it is Red is where dual and/or safety pilot is spelled out as required:


Sec. 61.129 — Aeronautical experience.

(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.
(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least—
(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and
(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least—
(i) Ten hours of instrument training using a view-limiting device including attitude instrument flying, partial panel skills, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, and intercepting and tracking navigational systems. Five hours of the 10 hours required on instrument training must be in a single engine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
(iii) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in daytime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(v) Three hours in a single-engine airplane with an authorized instructor in preparation for the practical test within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test.
(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under §61.127(b)(1) that include—
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.


Edit: The complex training requirement implies Dual Instruction, but once you got endorsement, you don't have to have an instructor with you as far as I read it.



Now, it is possible that my understanding of English differs from FAA's writing and it is explained somewhere that all these "training" requirements indeed mean that CFI must be present, but I certainly do not see it in 61.129 as I read it
 
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Training means dual so everything under subparagraph (3) is dual.
 
genna said:
maybe i'm missing something but here it is Red is where dual and/or safety pilot is spelled out as required:


Sec. 61.129 — Aeronautical experience.

(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.
(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least—
(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and
(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least—
(i) Ten hours of instrument training using a view-limiting device including attitude instrument flying, partial panel skills, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, and intercepting and tracking navigational systems. Five hours of the 10 hours required on instrument training must be in a single engine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
(iii) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in daytime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(v) Three hours in a single-engine airplane with an authorized instructor in preparation for the practical test within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test.
(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under §61.127(b)(1) that include—
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.


Edit: The complex training requirement implies Dual Instruction, but once you got endorsement, you don't have to have an instructor with you as far as I read it.


No..it says 10 hours of TRAINING.


Now, it is possible that my understanding of English differs from FAA's writing and it is explained somewhere that all these "training" requirements indeed mean that CFI must be present, but I certainly do not see it in 61.129 as I read it
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Read it again. And edit to add 61.127
 
ok.. now can someone point me to where it says that "training" means "dual".
 
genna said:
ok.. now can someone point me to where it says that "training" means "dual".
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Ok. I kind of see it now...

So in my case since I have IR, it's still just means about 10 hours dual left in the Complex(including a night XC) flight.
 
genna said:
ok.. now can someone point me to where it says that "training" means "dual".
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Will 61.1 work for you?


Training time means training received--

(i) In flight from an authorized instructor;


  • (ii) On the ground from an authorized instructor; or (iii) In a flight simulator or flight training device from an authorized instructor.
 
MikeELP said:
:mad2: :mad2: :mad2:
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:yes::mad2:

I'm going to repeat this since you seem to have a problem with my statement.

I see where training means dual. So I retract my assertion that you only need 10 dual time for commercial. It is total dual 20 hours(assuming a fast learner). I stand corrected on that.

However, in my case, since I have IR, the 10 instrument required hours of the 20 is covered, only Complex training and 2 hour night flight are left which(assuming i'm a fast learner and I am taught all the maneuvers in that time) can be done in 10 hours. Imagine that I learned everything I needed in 61.127 inside that complex training.


Are we done now?
 
You need 20 hours of instruction toward your commercial checkride.

Depending upon how your instrument instructor logged your training, it may cover some or all of the instrument training requirements, but you still need 20 hours of instruction toward your commercial checkride.
 
genna said:
So, the minimum requirements for CPL -- among others -- are 250 hours total, of which 50 can be in an approved simulator.

Is this something that has to be monitored and signed off by a CFI or can I just go and fly around in a simulator?

Also, what would you do that is useful in a simulator for CPL training? I understand that besides the minimums, there are some maneuvers that need to be learned, but that doesn't seem like something that is simulator friendly.

Background: I'm PPL+IR with about 180 hours total. By the time I finish other CPL requirements, I'd have about 200 total time +10 hours in a simulator(IR training). So I could theoretically save some $$ with 40 hours on the simulator. I have no desire to get an ATP.
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I´m looking to share flight time if you´re interested, I have my PPL and IR. we can split cost.
 
genna said:
So, the minimum requirements for CPL -- among others -- are 250 hours total, of which 50 can be in an approved simulator.

Is this something that has to be monitored and signed off by a CFI or can I just go and fly around in a simulator?

Also, what would you do that is useful in a simulator for CPL training? I understand that besides the minimums, there are some maneuvers that need to be learned, but that doesn't seem like something that is simulator friendly.

Background: I'm PPL+IR with about 180 hours total. By the time I finish other CPL requirements, I'd have about 200 total time +10 hours in a simulator(IR training). So I could theoretically save some $$ with 40 hours on the simulator. I have no desire to get an ATP.
Click to expand...

CP is mostly about doing visual things, so the sims that may actually be useful to you will likely be more expensive than a plane, but a few hours in a Class D sim where you can really, and realistically, get your ass kicked and crash I think are a really good thing for C/MEL training.

Since you don't need all the time towards CPL training though, you could use those sim hours to build your instrument skills.

For logging sim time, that needs an instructor sign off I'm pretty sure.
 
I just passed my Commercial Check Ride this week. My advise is to rent the plane and practice the maneuvers on your own after going over them a few times with an instructor. Considering the amount of time you need, I think this would be a great way to become proficient at the commercial maneuvers. Once you get close, you can get the instructor back in the plane to fine tune things and prep for the exam.
 
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