Commercial solo requirements

flyingcheesehead

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Looks like they've changed - It used to be that you had to be the sole human occupant of the aircraft for the solo time, with the exception that on multi-engine aircraft you could have a CFI aboard for insurance purposes.

But now, it appears that you can have a CFI aboard for the "solo" time for singles as well:

§ 61.129 Aeronautical experience.

(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under §61.127(b)(1) that include—

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

Wow. So solo doesn't have to be solo even in a single any more. Fail. :frown2:
 
This changed in October 2009 but a lot of CFI's still have the old reg engrained in their head. Thanks for posting though!

I won't argue one way or the other, but at least the change offers additional flexibility so you can complete these requirements while receiving dual instruction.
 
I won't argue one way or the other, but at least the change offers additional flexibility so you can complete these requirements while receiving dual instruction.

Can you, though? I thought that the purpose of the CFI-aboard option was to allow a "solo" flight that insurance otherwise wouldn't be possible, and that the CFI should be sitting there with their arms folded and their mouth shut.

Which, In My Not So Humble Opinion, DEFEATS THE WHOLE PURPOSE.

:mad2::mad2::mad2:

Exactly.
 
I don't like the change either. Sounds like the mills got to the FAA.
 
Insurance had something to do with this.

How do you figure? None of the places I ever rented from had limitations on where I could go when renting a single. For twins I can see, but for a single, I don't see how insurance had anything to do with it.
 
How do you figure? None of the places I ever rented from had limitations on where I could go when renting a single. For twins I can see, but for a single, I don't see how insurance had anything to do with it.

Night. Btdt.
 
How do you figure? None of the places I ever rented from had limitations on where I could go when renting a single. For twins I can see, but for a single, I don't see how insurance had anything to do with it.
I know of one FBO requires 50 hours complex time for solo privileges... And it used to be that if the renter was trained by the FBO that it was waived. Now they cannot waive it any more... whether the reg or the insurance change came first is a chicken/egg argument.
 
I know of one FBO requires 50 hours complex time for solo privileges... And it used to be that if the renter was trained by the FBO that it was waived. Now they cannot waive it any more... whether the reg or the insurance change came first is a chicken/egg argument.

You don't need to do any of the cross countries or(what used to be) solo time in a complex.
 
You don't need to do any of the cross countries or(what used to be) solo time in a complex.

Bingo.

I did mine in the 182 - And it wasn't anything specifically for the commercial, it was simply a return trip from Houston. I realized in the air somewhere over Missouri that if I made one extra landing it'd count. So, when I was on FF with RFD approach, I just asked 'em to come in for a stop&go (so it'd count for night currency too) before I continued on my way.
 
Yep, I got single and multi confused re: insurance. I'm betting that since they made the exception for multi they just put the same language in for singles?
 
Yep, I got single and multi confused re: insurance. I'm betting that since they made the exception for multi they just put the same language in for singles?

It's been there for a LONG time for multi, though, and just the last year and a half for singles.
 
Didn't ICAO adopt a similar change already? I wonder if this is more of the harmonization stuff like LUAW and the SIC type rating.

I know there was a big debate years back about ICAO proposing the ability to go from zero time to commercial with NO solo time at all, since airline pilots would never fly solo.

I did and do think SOLO should be a requirement of the private certificate. I also think that a commercial applicant should have some SOLO time, but it doesn't necessarily have to be in addition to the time required for the private. It comes down to "how much SOLO time is required before a pilot has learned the things that SOLO experience is supposed to teach you?"
 
Didn't ICAO adopt a similar change already? I wonder if this is more of the harmonization stuff like LUAW and the SIC type rating.

I know there was a big debate years back about ICAO proposing the ability to go from zero time to commercial with NO solo time at all, since airline pilots would never fly solo.

But those pilots would also be limited to SIC.

I did and do think SOLO should be a requirement of the private certificate. I also think that a commercial applicant should have some SOLO time, but it doesn't necessarily have to be in addition to the time required for the private. It comes down to "how much SOLO time is required before a pilot has learned the things that SOLO experience is supposed to teach you?"

The more, the better IMO. You have to learn to be self-sufficient and not have someone there to save you when the poop hits the prop. I don't think the 10 hours of solo for the Private is enough to give someone that sense to the level that a commercial pilot or ATP needs. Especially on the cross-country flight, where it's clear that they want to get you "out of the nest" (and that's where the real learning happens), it just seems counterproductive to allow a CFI on board.

What I would rather see is to allow the cross-country to be done in a single, even for the multiengine commercial, but still make it solo instead of allowing a CFI on board.
 
http://www.gpo.gov:80/fdsys/pkg/FR-2009-08-21/pdf/E9-19353.pdf#page=34

64. This revision of Sec. 61.129 amends the commercial pilot
certification solo aeronautical experience requirements to allow the
aeronautical experience to be performed either solo or while performing
the duties of PIC with an instructor on board

This final rule revises Sec. 61.129(a)(4), (c)(4), (d)(4), (e)(4),
and (g)(2) to allow the commercial pilot certification aeronautical
experience to be conducted either solo or while performing the duties
of PIC with an instructor on board. Even though the commercial pilot
certification aeronautical experience requirements for a multiengine
airplane rating allow the aeronautical experience requirements to be
conducted either solo or with an authorized instructor on board (See
Sec. 61.129(b)(4)), the solo aeronautical experience requirements were
purposely written differently for other aircraft categories. This is
because comments received in response to Notice No. 95-11 (60 FR 41160-
41284; August 11, 1995) indicated that some insurance policies prohibit
persons who do not already hold the multiengine airplane category and
class rating on their pilot certificate from flying solo in multiengine
airplanes.
Five commenters supported the proposed provision permitting flights
previously required to be performed solo with an instructor on board.
One commenter stated the knowledge requirements are unchanged, and an
additional pilot scanning for traffic enhances safety. Three commenters
asserted that upon receiving private pilot certificates, pilots are
permitted to fly solo and carry passengers, and should have no further
solo flight requirements.
Thirteen commenters opposed the provision with seven arguing that
solo flight contributes to the development of essential self-reliance,
decision-making, and command skills. Two commenters stated that, under
the proposed rules, a pilot could progress all the way to an ATP
certificate with only 10 hours of solo flight early in training. One
commenter recommended pilots completing a commercial certificate with
zero solo time in class be issued ratings limited to second in command
(SIC) privileges. One commenter suggested if it is not possible for an
applicant to perform the flights solo, then dual instruction
requirements should be increased. Two commenters believed the proposed
provision is driven by insurance and cost concerns, rather than safety
or education concerns and insurance concerns should not restrict solo
flight by commercial pilot candidates. The commenter stated most
commercial pilot training is performed in either a single engine fixed
gear airplane or in some low performance single engine retractable gear
airplane, neither of which is difficult to insure.
The Greater St. Louis Flight Instructor Association rejected the
argument that flights with an instructor on board foster cockpit
resource management (CRM) skills, noting that the purpose of part 61
training is to prepare pilots to fly to single-pilot standards, not to
prepare them for a future airline career. The association also asserted
the proposed provision subverts the intent of Sec. 91.3, which defines
the PIC as directly responsible for, and the final authority on, the
operation of the aircraft. Finally, the association asserted students
ostensibly acting as PIC will defer to flight instructors and
Examiners.
One commenter recommended solo cross country experience be
required, but that pilots working toward a commercial multiengine
airplane rating be permitted to perform the flights in a single engine
airplane to avoid potential insurance conflicts. Two commenters,
including AOPA, recommended permitting performance of cross country
flights solo or with an instructor on board and that commercial pilot
candidates be permitted to perform the flights with passengers on
board. One commenter recommended all pilots who hold a private or sport
pilot certificate be permitted to fulfill solo flight requirements for
additional certificates or ratings with an instructor on board, or
while carrying passengers, arguing that carrying passengers allows
pilots to share costs and expose potential future students to the
experience of flight without degrading safety. Finally one commenter
opposed the underlying requirement for a long cross country flight from
commercial pilot candidates because it is only meant to conform to ICAO
standards.
Since the adoption of Sec. 61.129, the FAA has learned that some
operators of the other categories and classes of aircraft also have the
same insurance policy restrictions. Many of these aircraft operators
also believe solo provisions for commercial pilot certification-
multiengine airplane rating is beneficial in teaching crew resource
management (CRM). These provisions permit the training to be performed
solo or with an instructor on board while the applicant is performing
the duties of PIC in a multiengine airplane. Some operators have said
that they will be agreeable to their commercial pilot applicants
practicing abnormal and emergency procedures if the applicant's
instructor was on board. Therefore, this final rule provides for
commercial pilot certification for the single engine airplane,
helicopter, gyroplane, powered-lift, and airship ratings to be
performed either solo or while performing the duties of PIC with an
authorized instructor aboard.
We believe the negative comments against this proposal are more of
a philosophical disagreement than a safety issue. The existing rule,
Sec. 61.129(b)(4), has permitted the commercial pilot-airplane
multiengine training to be performed either solo or with an instructor
on board since August 4, 1997, and there has not been any difference
noted in safety or the quality of the skills and abilities of
commercial pilot-airplane multiengine applicants. We believe applicants
and instructors have used this training for commercial pilot-airplane
multiengine applicants to achieve proficiency in crew resource
management and coordination with an SIC designated pilot.

For the stated reasons, the FAA is adopting the revision as
proposed in the NPRM.
Bolded is for emphasis, not my personal opinion. However, I think that it has indeed eased things for folks attempting to find a rental plane to satisfy the requirements. Did for me.

Almost ready for my SEL comm check ride btw :D
 
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So let me understand this. We dont trust someone enough to fly the plane without a babysitter yet we are willing to give him a license that allows him to fly passengers for pay in the same type of aircraft. Sure, that makes sense :rolleyes: :confused: .
 
So let me understand this. We dont trust someone enough to fly the plane without a babysitter yet we are willing to give him a license that allows him to fly passengers for pay in the same type of aircraft. Sure, that makes sense :rolleyes: :confused: .

I don't think that is the issue unless by "we" you mean insurance underwriters and FBO owners.
 
http://www.gpo.gov:80/fdsys/pkg/FR-2009-08-21/pdf/E9-19353.pdf#page=34


Bolded is for emphasis, not my personal opinion. However, I think that it has indeed eased things for folks attempting to find a rental plane to satisfy the requirements. Did for me.

What did you have trouble renting? :dunno: Hell, you could have done all of that stuff in your 170. In fact, your trip from the ConUS back to Alaska in the 170 easily counts for the solo XC.

I can see what they're saying with CRM and such, but IMO that could be added as a separate requirement. It's not a good replacement for solo.
 
I don't think that is the issue unless by "we" you mean insurance underwriters and FBO owners.

What use is a commercial multiengine ticket if you are lacking the experience to even rent one ?

Very odd.
 
What did you have trouble renting? :dunno: Hell, you could have done all of that stuff in your 170. In fact, your trip from the ConUS back to Alaska in the 170 easily counts for the solo XC.

Actually it didn't. That was the first thing I checked when starting my commercial. All my legs were less than 250nm :rofl: But I did do the long cross country in my 170 last month. It was a nice flight across the Arctic Circle and back.

Solo night flight for some reason. I know that I could have probably gone somewhere else where they didn't have that restriction on their fleet.

Also, since I was endorsed for complex aircraft and could act as PIC I could combine the dual complex time (I still needed some) with some of the "solo" requirements such as the ten night takeoffs/landings.
 
What use is a commercial multiengine ticket if you are lacking the experience to even rent one ?

Very odd.

The commercial multi will get you a job in the right seat of a turboprop or jet at the airlines if the economy is good enough, but it won't get you the ability to rent one.
 
Actually it didn't. That was the first thing I checked when starting my commercial. All my legs were less than 250nm :rofl:

Nope, it counted:

FAR 61.129(a)(4) said:
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point.

Pretty sure your original departure point in the ConUS is more than 250nm from your final destination in AK. ;) But that's OK...

But I did do the long cross country in my 170 last month. It was a nice flight across the Arctic Circle and back.

... because you got another flight out of it. :yes:

Solo night flight for some reason. I know that I could have probably gone somewhere else where they didn't have that restriction on their fleet.

Why would you need to rent for the solo night flight instead of use the 170? :dunno:
 
Nope, it counted:



Pretty sure your original departure point in the ConUS is more than 250nm from your final destination in AK. ;) But that's OK...



... because you got another flight out of it. :yes:



Why would you need to rent for the solo night flight instead of use the 170? :dunno:

Because I was in Nevada? :idea:

:rofl:
 
The commercial multi will get you a job in the right seat of a turboprop or jet at the airlines if the economy is good enough,

Maybe that's the problem.

If the intent is to qualify someone for the right seat in a RJ or turboprop, why dont we train people for that job then ?
 
Maybe that's the problem.

If the intent is to qualify someone for the right seat in a RJ or turboprop, why dont we train people for that job then ?

Well, I got the commercial with the intent to be able to take opportunities that came up - Ferrying, etc. I envisioned it as single-pilot.

The commercial single turned out as I envisioned - Single pilot. (Not that there's a whole lot of multi-pilot, single engine operations.)

All the commercial multi has gotten me is a single trip in the right seat of a Hawker 800. Not exactly what I envisioned, but I'll take it. :D

I guess that it would be good to train for both scenarios... But that guy that gets in the right seat of an RJ is going to be in the left seat eventually, and I'd rather have them get the self-sufficiency and command mentality when they can, which is generally when there's nobody else to rely on.
 
The commercial multi will get you a job in the right seat of a turboprop or jet at the airlines if the economy is good enough, but it won't get you the ability to rent one.
That isn't entirely true - I've been flying rental twins solo since I had 25 hrs ME. I did my initial Commercial in the twin and had 75 hrs of ME time (most of it solo) when I took my ride. You just have to know where to look for the rentals. Alot easier renting twins than it is to rent a seaplane, that's for sure.
 
That isn't entirely true - I've been flying rental twins solo since I had 25 hrs ME. I did my initial Commercial in the twin and had 75 hrs of ME time (most of it solo) when I took my ride. You just have to know where to look for the rentals. Alot easier renting twins than it is to rent a seaplane, that's for sure.

Yup. I could probably go and rent the Duchess in town here with a checkout, and same for the Seneca in Madison, but the closest I can rent a seaplane solo is in Minnesota.

I don't bother with the twin checkouts 'cuz I don't *need* a twin very often so it's awfully expensive to keep current in them. I'd sure love to own one, though.

But, I think when I first got my commercial multi I was still shy of the 700TT required to rent the Seneca. It probably has higher requirements than your average "trainer" twin.
 
Because if he doesn't charge, and doesn't log the time how has he received compensation?

Doesn't log the time? Yeah right. What's he doing it for then? Likes to spend money on return airline tickets? :dunno:
 
Doesn't log the time? Yeah right. What's he doing it for then? Likes to spend money on return airline tickets? :dunno:

Cause he's bored? He's semi-retired/retired and is just looking for stuff to do? If I was retired and wasn't really worried about money, I'd do something like that.
 
Cause he's bored? He's semi-retired/retired and is just looking for stuff to do? If I was retired and wasn't really worried about money, I'd do something like that.

Yeah, but you have your commercial so it's OK. :D
 
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