Commercial Single Engine addon

Fearless Tower

Fearless Tower

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Fearless Tower
Found this on a website advertising flight training (I won't dime out the outfit)

Is it just me , or does this seem a bit of overkill?
SE COMMERCIAL PILOT ADD-ON COURSE
Estimated Cost - $2,220.92

This course is designed for students that have obtained the Multi-Engine Commercial Pilot certification and now wish to add the Single Engine certification.

The course includes 8 hours of ground instruction, 6 hours of flight instruction and a 2 hour checkride. The estimated cost includes all pilot supplies, books, charts, examiner fees and airport fees.
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8 hours of ground ???? To cover what? The complicated systems of a 172?

I did my commercial this way (different outfit though) but can't imagine needing that much ground and flight time to cover chandelles, lazy 8's, 8's on pylons.....etc)
 
Fearless Tower said:
but can't imagine needing that much ground and flight time to cover chandelles, lazy 8's, 8's on pylons.....etc)
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I can. Lots of ME-only people don't even know you need to know SE stuff.

But, of course, it all depends on you. If you don't think you need that much, buy it by the hour.
 
nosehair said:
I can. Lots of ME-only people don't even know you need to know SE stuff.

But, of course, it all depends on you. If you don't think you need that much, buy it by the hour.
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I don't need it - I already have the addon, just came across it and thought it was unusual.

I can understand the 6 hrs of flight training based on what you mentioned, but still - 8 hours of ground? You can only explain the maneuvers so much before you just need to get in the plane and fly 'em.
 
Well, let's say it's $100/hr for that 172. That means it's $800 for the plane (6 hours training plus 2 hours flight test). Also, it's probably $400 for the examiner. Figuring a copy of the Flight Training Handbook, local sectional and A/FD, etc, you get maybe $50 worth of materials. Not sure what "airport fees" there might be, but at some Long Island airports, each touch of the wheels to the runway costs a couple of bucks -- figure another $50. That leaves $900 to cover 14 hours of instructor time, and $60/hour is what I charge myself.

8 hours of instructor non-flight time? Seems reasonable to me to cover briefing/debriefing for 6 hours of flight training plus a practice oral.

All in all, not outrageous or even eye-opening to me.
 
Ron Levy said:
8 hours of instructor non-flight time? Seems reasonable to me to cover briefing/debriefing for 6 hours of flight training plus a practice oral.
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Ok, I guess that makes sense when you factor in the briefing debriefing for the 6 hours of flight instruction. For some reason I was thinking of 8 hours in a classroom environment doing ground school type stuff.
 
Ron Levy said:
Well, let's say it's $100/hr for that 172. That means it's $800 for the plane (6 hours training plus 2 hours flight test). Also, it's probably $400 for the examiner. Figuring a copy of the Flight Training Handbook, local sectional and A/FD, etc, you get maybe $50 worth of materials. Not sure what "airport fees" there might be, but at some Long Island airports, each touch of the wheels to the runway costs a couple of bucks -- figure another $50. That leaves $900 to cover 14 hours of instructor time, and $60/hour is what I charge myself.

8 hours of instructor non-flight time? Seems reasonable to me to cover briefing/debriefing for 6 hours of flight training plus a practice oral.

All in all, not outrageous or even eye-opening to me.
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You charge $60/hour for instruction?
 
mhockey21 said:
You charge $60/hour for instruction?
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Yes. And I get it. Given the overhead I carry, much less and I'd effectively instructing for free. You want to pay $35/hour, you can do that at the FBO, and you'll get some 300-hour teenage wonder who's willing to work for $20/hour sans benefits. You want a 40-year, 9000-hour instructor, you pay more.
 
Ah yes, the ol' "anyone with less hours than me is a worthless flight instructor" adage. Awesome.
 
In the DC metro area the "junior" CFIs at a flight school go for $45/hr, and the "senior" ones can be $55-65. Specialists like aerobatics instructors can hit triple digits.

On the other hand - a golf instructor is $70 per hour at a nearby club.

I don't think there's an automatic correlation between the number of hours instructing and the quality of the instructor - but it's still the best way to bet. And what you're trying to learn matters as well. There's a difference between being a pilot and a "captain", and you can learn a lot (if you try) about the latter by working with someone who'd got a lot of varied experience.
 
For comparison...
this is where I got mine done. In the middle of the desert.

Commercial Pilot
Initial Commercial Single Engine License
Course Cost
$2,275 – Examiner fee not included
Approximate 3% Discount for Cash Payments
Cash, Money Orders, Cashier Checks, Travelers Checks
**** Discount is only For these Prices ****
Type Aircraft/Equipment
Cessna 172RG
Course Description
This is a two day course, starting with ground school at 10:00 a.m. (AZ time) on the first day. Ground school covers airspace, cross country flight planning, aircraft systems, engine out procedures, navigation & ATC procedures, etc. followed by 1-2 hours of flight training. The second is 1-2 hours of flight training and a check ride. Training consists of chandelles, lazy eights, eight-on pylons, short and soft field landings, and commercial maneuvers.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Ah, yes, the ol' "totally misquote and distort what someone else says" game. Awesome.
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Hey, I wasn't the one discounting someone's ability just because they have 300 hours. That was all on you. Unless of course you don't consider the sarcastic tone of "300 hour wonder" to be disparaging. Some of the worst teachers I had were the ones who have been in it forever. They sucked because they couldn't related to someone young enough to be their grandkid, and failed to get the point across.
 
EdFred said:
Hey, I wasn't the one discounting someone's ability just because they have 300 hours. That was all on you. Unless of course you don't consider the sarcastic tone of "300 hour wonder" to be disparaging.
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I'll stand by what I said -- that a 40-year, 9000-hour instructor is worth twice the price of a 300-hour instructor with no operational experience. There's a reason why experienced instructors say to new instructors, "Now you'll really start learning how to fly." And I know that I am a light-years better instructor now than I was when I got my CFI in 1973 with 342 hours. Frankly, I feel regret for the students who were victimized by my lack of instructing experience during the first few hundred hours of instruction I gave, but I can take some comfort that at least they weren't paying very much for my services, either.

If you think all that is disparaging of the 300-hour instructor, that's a subjective judgement you're making, not a statement I made.
 
Ron Levy said:
Frankly, I feel regret for the students who were victimized by my lack of instructing experience during the first few hundred hours of instruction I gave, but I can take some comfort that at least they weren't paying very much for my services, either..
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Gotta respect that sort of frankness - :thumbsup:
 
taters said:
For comparison...
this is where I got mine done. In the middle of the desert.

Commercial Pilot
Initial Commercial Single Engine License
Course Cost
$2,275 – Examiner fee not included
Approximate 3% Discount for Cash Payments
Cash, Money Orders, Cashier Checks, Travelers Checks
**** Discount is only For these Prices ****
Type Aircraft/Equipment
Cessna 172RG
Course Description
This is a two day course, starting with ground school at 10:00 a.m. (AZ time) on the first day. Ground school covers airspace, cross country flight planning, aircraft systems, engine out procedures, navigation & ATC procedures, etc. followed by 1-2 hours of flight training. The second is 1-2 hours of flight training and a check ride. Training consists of chandelles, lazy eights, eight-on pylons, short and soft field landings, and commercial maneuvers.
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Now THAT is indeed overkill - Even with pre-flight brief/debrief, Sheble doesn't come anywhere close to 8 hours of ground training and probably nowhere near 6 hrs flight......plus examiner fee is not included in Sheble's price.

BT

I would agree with Ron, $60 an hour for a CFI with considerable experience is the norm in SoCal.
 
Ron Levy said:
Frankly, I feel regret for the students who were victimized by my lack of instructing experience during the first few hundred hours of instruction I gave, but I can take some comfort that at least they weren't paying very much for my services, either.
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Holy thread drift...but


Your first 10 students are who really shape what kind of instructor you end up being. Not that you don't change or grow after that but most of "the curve" happens there. I have to agree very much with the quote above..but its just part of growing as an instructor-pilot. NO ONE is going to be a "top notch" CFI out of the box, however, some get sharper faster than others.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
I dunno, I've seen a few bestow upon themselves the title of "Captain" without the experience or background to back it up. :rolleyes:
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OK - would you be happier if I said "There's a difference between being a pilot and a pilot IN COMMAND?"

I'd also be interested in your (and others) ideas on what experience and background is required to be a "captain". Does one have to be paid? Does one have to be carrying paying passengers or cargo? If so, how much? How many engines or how big does the airplane have to be?

In my opinion, one becomes a "captain" when one really comes to understand the responsibilities of being in command of a vessel - responsibilities to the crew, passengers and cargo, employer, the public, and so on. Thus "captaincy" is a matter of attitude more than anything else, and the size of your vessel doesn't matter very much. It all comes down to:
You're in command.
You understand that the responsibilities of command far outweigh the privileges, and that the privileges exist so that you can manage the responsibility.
You strive to master the skills and gain the knowledge to improve your command performance.

One of the reasons I think the requirements for solo flight is important in flight training is that it offers the opportunity for a student to experience the "it's just me" feeling. I think that feeling is part of assuming command responsibilities.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
I dunno, I've seen a few bestow upon themselves the title of "Captain" without the experience or background to back it up. :rolleyes:
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Sort of like one bringing up over and over how many hours they have and that's why everyone should listen to them. :ihih:
 
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