Commercial License Requirements

[vne147]

Hello everyone.

I am currently working towards my ASEL commercial license and have a question about one of the cross country experience requirements. Specifically, it's this requirement that states I need to have done:

One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point.
​

I was going through my logbook and I see several trips I took that where I flew somewhere, spent the night, and then flew back.

Here's one example:

I flew from KDAB to KBCT to KEYW. Then the next morning I flew the return trip of KEYW to KBCT to KDAB.

So, that boils down to a total distance of 632NM, with landings at 3 different airports one of which was 279NM from the original departure point.

My question is does this count towards the requirement if I slept in between legs? I can do another cross country specifically to meet this requirement if need be but if I don't have to, that would save me a little money.

Your thoughts and comments are appreciated. Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[poadeleted20]

My question is does this count towards the requirement if I slept in between legs?

Yes, it does count. As Flight Standards put it, "The 'original point of departure' does not change with a new day or delay." The only other issue is that you made the trip solo, i.e., as the sole living human occupant of the aircraft. If you didn't make and log the whole trip that way, it doesn't count for this purpose no matter how far you flew.

 

[Johann]

Yes, it does count. As Flight Standards put it, "The 'original point of departure' does not change with a new day or delay." The only other issue is that you made the trip solo, i.e., as the sole living human occupant of the aircraft. If you didn't make and log the whole trip that way, it doesn't count for this purpose no matter how far you flew.

Do you have to log it as one flight, or is it OK if you have 2 lines?
Since the date is changing I would think you want to log it as 2 flights, but does it count logged like that?

 

[vne147]

Yes, it does count. As Flight Standards put it, "The 'original point of departure' does not change with a new day or delay." The only other issue is that you made the trip solo, i.e., as the sole living human occupant of the aircraft. If you didn't make and log the whole trip that way, it doesn't count for this purpose no matter how far you flew.

Ron,

Thanks for the input. Concerning whether or not I made the trip "solo", I did not. I was PIC but I was not alone. I had a friend with me who is not a pilot. There are some solo time requirements for the commercial ticket but unless I'm mistaken, the requirement that is the subject of this thread is not one of them. I'll double check that though.

Do you have to log it as one flight, or is it OK if you have 2 lines?
Since the date is changing I would think you want to log it as 2 flights, but does it count logged like that?

Johann,

I logged this trip as 4 separate lines, one for each leg. I hope that doesn't make a difference.

 

[Brad Z]

Ron,

Thanks for the input. Concerning whether or not I made the trip "solo", I did not. I was PIC but I was not alone. I had a friend with me who is not a pilot. There are some solo time requirements for the commercial ticket but unless I'm mistaken, the requirement that is the subject of this thread is not one of them. I'll double check that though.

Go here:

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retriev...2e51&r=PART&n=14y2.0.1.1.2#14:2.0.1.1.2.6.1.5

...and read (a)(4)

(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under §61.127(b)(1) that include—
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and ...


Solo means sole occupant of the plane. Doesn't matter if it's a pilot or a passenger. If there's a living person on board it doesn't count. Pets and corpses are ok.

I logged this trip as 4 separate lines, one for each leg. I hope that doesn't make a difference.

It's probably a moot point for you now, but how many lines you used in your logbook makes no difference.

 

[jordane93]

yep it is loggable

 

[ja_user]

Solo is required though, dogs are OK... Human friends are not...

 

[jordane93]

Solo is required though, dogs are OK... Human friends are not...

Or with an instructor with the pilot performing duties of PIC

 

[ja_user]

Or with an instructor with the pilot performing duties of PIC

Cfi's aren't human :

 

[vne147]

What a shame I took my friend because I like dogs more than people.

I do have another similar trip logged when I went to visit a friend (and his dog) and I did fly solo that time but I didn't specifically write "solo" in the remarks column. Is that kind of up to the examiner as to whether or not he accepts it? Is there anything illegal about just writing in solo now? It's not falsifying the information. I just wasn't descriptive enough when I initially logged the flight.

Thoughts?

 

[Samwise]

What a shame I took my friend because I like dogs more than people.

I do have another similar trip logged when I went to visit a friend (and his dog) and I did fly solo that time but I didn't specifically write "solo" in the remarks column. Is that kind of up to the examiner as to whether or not he accepts it? Is there anything illegal about just writing in solo now? It's not falsifying the information. I just wasn't descriptive enough when I initially logged the flight.

Thoughts?

Write solo in there and call it good.

 

[ja_user]

If it was truely solo, write it in and move on...

Now see if you can find all those night TO/Lnds at a towered airport, with the tower open. The night solo requirements are sometimes a challenge as well...

 

[vne147]

If it was truely solo, write it in and move on...

Now see if you can find all those night TO/Lnds at a towered airport, with the tower open. The night solo requirements are sometimes a challenge as well...

I have all the other requirements. I flew a couple hundred hours out of a Class C airport with plenty of night flights mixed in there. It was just that long cross country I was unsure about because I spent the night.

Thanks everyone for the input.

 

[Brad Z]

yep it is loggable

Sure it's loggable. But it doesn't meet the requirements of 14 cfr 61.129(a)(4)(i)

Or with an instructor with the pilot performing duties of PIC

That's not solo. That only works for multi-engine requirements in lieu of solo operations, basically as a way of placating insurance companies who were not real excited about insuring solo multi ops.

 

[ja_user]

Sure it's loggable. But it doesn't meet the requirements of 14 cfr 61.129(a)(4)(i)



That's not solo. That only works for multi-engine requirements in lieu of solo operations, basically as a way of placating insurance companies who were not real excited about insuring solo multi ops.

They recently changed the SEL requirements to match the same as the MEL.

A CFI signing it off properly, will work for either now..


Here is the full text of that section.
4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under Sec. 61.127(b)(1) that include--]

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

 

[Brad Z]

They recently changed the SEL requirements to match the same as the MEL.

A CFI signing it off properly, will work for either now..


Here is the full text of that section.
4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under Sec. 61.127(b)(1) that include--]

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

Mea culpa. Looks like that was changed in 2009. Of course that won't help the OP. His passenger was not an authorized instructor.

 

[ja_user]

Mea culpa. Looks like that was changed in 2009. Of course that won't help the OP. His passenger was not an authorized instructor.

Yeah, I thought it was MEL for a while too.. Turns out they changed it for some reason, probably complex singles insurance....


But yeah, just do it solo..

 

[poadeleted20]

Do you have to log it as one flight, or is it OK if you have 2 lines?

Yes, that's OK as long as they are clearly connected. You might even throw into the Remarks something like "Long solo XC day 1" and "Long solo XC day 2" just to make it clear.

 

[jordane93]

Yeah, I thought it was MEL for a while too.. Turns out they changed it for some reason, probably complex singles insurance....


But yeah, just do it solo..

I ended up doing it solo just because it was easier and so I wouldn't have to pay an instructor to basically just sit in the right seat.

 

[vne147]

So I went back and read 61.129 again, and again, and then again. I always think I understand an FAR until I read it the third time. Now, I’m uncertain about a different part of it. Specifically paragraphs 61.129(a)(3)(iii) and (iv).

To paraphrase, it says I need to have done two 2 hour cross countries more than 100NM, one during daytime, and one at night. My question is, do these cross countries have to be dual time with an instructor?

My confusion is because both of those paragraphs belong to the section that requires 20 hours of “training”. To me, saying “training” means it has to be dual with a CFI. But, paragraph (v) of the same section specifically makes mention of an “authorized instructor”. So, if you needed to fly with an authorized instructor for all the paragraphs (i through v) in this section, why specifically state it in paragraph (v)?

I hope my logic isn’t too convoluted. It feels like my brain is overheating.

 

[Brad Z]

So I went back and read 61.129 again, and again, and then again. I always think I understand an FAR until I read it the third time. Now, I’m uncertain about a different part of it. Specifically paragraphs 61.129(a)(3)(iii) and (iv).

To paraphrase, it says I need to have done two 2 hour cross countries more than 100NM, one during daytime, and one at night. My question is, do these cross countries have to be dual time with an instructor?

My confusion is because both of those paragraphs belong to the section that requires 20 hours of “training”. To me, saying “training” means it has to be dual with a CFI. But, paragraph (v) of the same section specifically makes mention of an “authorized instructor”. So, if you needed to fly with an authorized instructor for all the paragraphs (i through v) in this section, why specifically state it in paragraph (v)?

I hope my logic isn’t too convoluted. It feels like my brain is overheating.

Yes, it's dual. I beleive the reason they added "authorized instructor", is to address the issue that the three hours have to be from the instructor signing of the candidate to take the checkride. You could use the DPE as an instructor for the other parts, but not for those three hours.

 

[vne147]

Yes, it's dual. I beleive the reason they added "authorized instructor", is to address the issue that the three hours have to be from the instructor signing of the candidate to take the checkride. You could use the DPE as an instructor for the other parts, but not for those three hours.

OK. Thanks for the clarification. And, I think I know the answer to this but I just want a sanity check; it doesn't matter whether or not those cross countries were PIC, just as long as they were dual. Correct?

 

[ja_user]

OK. Thanks for the clarification. And, I think I know the answer to this but I just want a sanity check; it doesn't matter whether or not those cross countries were PIC, just as long as they were dual. Correct?

Are you asking if your private pilot XC's would work? Because they would not.

Or simply did you simply do them in a twin before you were rated or something?

It is common to do daytime outbound, get dinner and do the return at night if you end up needing them.

 

[poadeleted20]

OK. Thanks for the clarification. And, I think I know the answer to this but I just want a sanity check; it doesn't matter whether or not those cross countries were PIC, just as long as they were dual. Correct?

Correct. That allows you to do your initial CP and initial ME together. In fact, none of it has to be done while acting as PIC (other than the practical test itself), although if not, the subparagraph (4) requirements must be accomplished while performing the duties of PIC while a CFI occupies the other seat as the real PIC to make the insurance company happy about someone with no ME rating flying the twin they're insuring or no/limited retractable time flying the complex single they're insuring.

 

[vne147]

Are you asking if your private pilot XC's would work? Because they would not.

Or simply did you simply do them in a twin before you were rated or something?

It is common to do daytime outbound, get dinner and do the return at night if you end up needing them.

No, I'm not asking if my PPL XCs would count. Although admittedly I don't understand why they wouldn't as long as the time, distance, and day/night conditions were met even if they're more than what's required for a PPL.

I was asking because the daytime XC I'm going to use for the requirement was not logged as PIC. If I remember correctly I needed a BFR at the time so my friend who was a CFI flew with me. It was logged as dual and he signed my logbook.

Correct. That allows you to do your initial CP and initial ME together. In fact, none of it has to be done while acting as PIC (other than the practical test itself), although if not, the subparagraph (4) requirements must be accomplished while performing the duties of PIC while a CFI occupies the other seat as the real PIC to make the insurance company happy about someone with no ME rating flying the twin they're insuring or no/limited retractable time flying the complex single they're insuring.

Gotcha. The fog is starting to lift.

 

[ja_user]

No, I'm not asking if my PPL XCs would count. Although admittedly I don't understand why they wouldn't as long as the time, distance, and day/night conditions were met even if they're more than what's required for a PPL.

I was asking because the daytime XC I'm going to use for the requirement was not logged as PIC. If I remember correctly I needed a BFR at the time so my friend who was a CFI flew with me. It was logged as dual and he signed my logbook.



Gotcha. The fog is starting to lift.

You could have logged PIC on that flight, you were rated for that category and class. Obviously you were not acting as PIC on that flight, but that is not the same as logging PIC..

Other than that, this all falls under section III "training on the areas of operation listed in Sec. 61.127(b)(1)"

So if you and the CFI feels good about saying that this is the type of training that occurred on this flight (preferably but not absolutely required to be noted as such in the log), then you have fulfilled that requirement.

 

[EdFred]

Yes, it's dual. I beleive the reason they added "authorized instructor", is to address the issue that the three hours have to be from the instructor signing of the candidate to take the checkride. You could use the DPE as an instructor for the other parts, but not for those three hours.

Where does it say the night and day training cross countries have to be with the instructor signing you off? Or am I missing something?

 

[jordane93]

Where does it say the night and day training cross countries have to be with the instructor signing you off? Or am I missing something?

Yea I dom't see it either. My instructor said i can do those x countries any time after you have the PPL solo or with an instructor. It doen't have to be the instructor signing you off for the check ride

 

[vne147]

Where does it say the night and day training cross countries have to be with the instructor signing you off? Or am I missing something?

Yea I dom't see it either. My instructor said i can do those x countries any time after you have the PPL solo or with an instructor. It doen't have to be the instructor signing you off for the check ride

The XCs don't have to be with the CFI signing you off for the checkride, but they do have to be with a CFI because both XCs are listed as part of section 61.129(a)(3) which starts out saying, "[FONT=&quot]20 hours of training".

At least that's my interpretation.[/FONT]

 

[EdFred]

The XCs don't have to be with the CFI signing you off for the checkride, but they do have to be with a CFI because both XCs are listed as part of section 61.129(a)(3) which starts out saying, "[FONT=&quot]20 hours of training".

At least that's my interpretation.[/FONT]

I agree with that as well. I don't get where Brad was coming up that they had to be with the one signing you off. Unless he wasn't saying that and just didn't word his response very well.