Commercial Aeronautical Experience Question

[PhantomCougar]

Per 61.129 -- Aeronautical Experience requirement for a Commercial Pilot Certificate --

(4) 10 hours of solo flight in a single-engine airplane on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part, which includes at least—
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

This FAR seems odd, why does it have to be solo? I have met these distances and hours easily but usually had non-pilot passengers with me. I would ask my CFI but he is unavailable for the next 2 weeks. Thanks.

 

[jesse]

This FAR seems odd, why does it have to be solo? I have met these distances and hours easily but usually had passengers with me. I would ask my CFI but he is unavailable for the next 2 weeks. Thanks.

Because passengers can help reduce workload. You could have a pilot passenger that could have did all the navigating for you. They must be solo.

 

[jdwatson]

Because the FAA says so !! Who knows what the original rational was. Jesse's explanation is as good as any.

What would you guess ? Is there anything unique to solo flight vs. non-solo ? (other than the obvious)

 

[ScottM]

What would you guess ? Is there anything unique to solo flight vs. non-solo ? (other than the obvious)

besides elbow room??

I find solo flight easier. There is more room to organize the cockpit and less distractions. I can also feel free to dance the macarana without fear of being video taped.

 

[SkyHog]

The reason is, in my opinion, to differentiate it from dual time. There is no other way I can see the FAA saying this, except to require it being solo.

What do you call non-solo, non-dual time?

 

[poadeleted20]

The reason is, in my opinion, to differentiate it from dual time. There is no other way I can see the FAA saying this, except to require it being solo. What do you call non-solo, non-dual time?

I am as sure as I can be that the purpose of the solo requirement is, as suggested above, to ensure that you can get from here to there and back again with no help of any type. Without requiring it to be flown solo, there is no way to ensure that. As noted by others, even a non-pilot passenger can provide assistance of one form or another.

In any event, the only time you can count towards this requirement in a single-engine airplane is as the sole, living, human occupant of the aircraft. You can take along your dog or your late (and I don't mean "tardy") Aunt Matilda, but that's it.

 

[ejensen]

What do you call non-solo, non-dual time?

Flying with passenger(s)

 

[PhantomCougar]

Fair enough.... I smell road trip... albeit solo.

 

[SkyHog]

In any event, the only time you can count towards this requirement in a single-engine airplane is as the sole, living, human occupant of the aircraft. You can take along your dog or your late (and I don't mean "tardy") Aunt Matilda, but that's it.

Morbid as it may be, you read my mind....

Does a dead person count as a passenger?

What if they die while the flight is occuring. Lets say, you took off with 2 people, en route, the passenger dies so you continue the flight long enough to count as the solo cross country....

 

[Don Jones]

I can also feel free to dance the macarana without fear of being video taped.

Snickers at Tristan

 

[Everskyward]

Does a dead person count as a passenger?

No.

What if they die while the flight is occuring.

People don't die in flight. They wait until they land and can be pronounced dead. Otherwise I hear it creates a paperwork nightmare.

 

[CJones]

Morbid as it may be, you read my mind....

Does a dead person count as a passenger?

What if they die while the flight is occuring. Lets say, you took off with 2 people, en route, the passenger dies so you continue the flight long enough to count as the solo cross country....

[Note to self:] Don't EVER EVER EVER EVER fly with Nick! [end note]

 

[poadeleted20]

Does a dead person count as a passenger?

As stated above, solo means you are the sole, living, human occupant. Also, a corpse is not a "passenger," which means a live, human occupant other than the required crew. This is a factor in 135 operations, where corpses are legally "cargo" rather than passengers.

What if they die while the flight is occuring. Lets say, you took off with 2 people, en route, the passenger dies so you continue the flight long enough to count as the solo cross country....

I think there's a rule somewhere that says if one of your passengers dies, you have to discontinue the flight and land as soon as practical. Outside of anything else, I would want to be really, absolutely sure there was no chance of reviving the person, so I'd declare an emergency and have EMS meet the plane on landing. I suppose you could log that last part of the flight as solo, but you should not go another 200 miles just to make it a "counter" before landing.

 

[KennyFlys]

I think there's a rule somewhere that says if one of your passengers dies, you have to discontinue the flight and land as soon as practical. Outside of anything else, I would want to be really, absolutely sure there was no chance of reviving the person, so I'd declare an emergency and have EMS meet the plane on landing.

I once thought my commercial CFI was playing the role of an incapacitated passenger. It turned out he was only afraid to look while I landed.

 

[N6399A]

Morbid as it may be, you read my mind....

Does a dead person count as a passenger?

What if they die while the flight is occuring. Lets say, you took off with 2 people, en route, the passenger dies so you continue the flight long enough to count as the solo cross country....

Anything we should talk about before leaving for Gastons? Just wondering.............. I mean.......... we're friends right?

 

[SkyHog]

Anything we should talk about before leaving for Gastons? Just wondering.............. I mean.......... we're friends right?

LOL - I'll make a deal:

If I die, you can continue to fly 200+ miles for your solo XC.

If you die, I get to do the same.

 

[PhantomCougar]

Ok way to go everyone, I ask a serious question and most everyone turns it into a circus.

with that in mind, if you go flying with me, and I get tired of waiting for you to croak, is it ok to shove you out the door so I can do my solo xc? Any FARs against that?

 

[SkyHog]

Ok way to go everyone, I ask a serious question and most everyone turns it into a circus.

Sorry, man, I thought the question had already been answered, so it was fair game for fun time... seriously, I'm sorry.

with that in mind, if you go flying with me, and I get tired of waiting for you to croak, is it ok to shove you out the door so I can do my solo xc? Any FARs against that?

91.3 would give you the authority to make that decision....if ATC tells you not to physically deplane a person, I guess 91.3(c) would require a written report to explain why. Absent ATC direction, I'd say you're good to go.

 

[Skip Miller]

is it ok to shove you out the door so I can do my solo xc? Any FARs against that?

Of course! 91.15.

It doesn't say you can't do it, it just says take precautions not to clobber anybody/anything on the ground.

-Skip

 

[poadeleted20]

with that in mind, if you go flying with me, and I get tired of waiting for you to croak, is it ok to shove you out the door so I can do my solo xc? Any FARs against that?

Skip wins the FAR contest over SkyHog with his 14 CFR 91.15 reference. 14 CFR 91.3 would apply only if an inflight emergency required you to push your passenger out the door.

 

[wsuffa]

As stated above, solo means you are the sole, living, human occupant. Also, a corpse is not a "passenger," which means a live, human occupant other than the required crew. This is a factor in 135 operations, where corpses are legally "cargo" rather than passengers.

Ron, were you the one that tells the story of flying a corpse that was not completely strapped down, and having a gas buildup occur?

 

[jayray]

Ron,

Do you not visit the other red board anymore?

 

[CJones]

Ron, were you the one that tells the story of flying a corpse that was not completely strapped down, and having a gas buildup occur?

I heard a story like that on the radio once. I guy was transporting a body in the SE and had to go high to get above weather in a 210. Once he got to the higher altitude, the pressure differential in/out of the body cavity started to take its toll. According to this gentleman, he had to put on the O2 mask for odor problems. Yuck yuck yuck yuck..

 

[SkyHog]

Ron, were you the one that tells the story of flying a corpse that was not completely strapped down, and having a gas buildup occur?

That would be Henning. Hell of a story

 

[poadeleted20]

Ron, were you the one that tells the story of flying a corpse that was not completely strapped down, and having a gas buildup occur?

Yes. And since you asked...one more time..."The One That Sat Up" is reproduced...

Now, first, it didn't happen to me. But I flew with the pilot it DID happen to, and thereon hangs a tale…

A long time ago I worked as a charter pilot for an outfit called Kentucky Flying Service (since sold to others and now known as Triangle Flying Service) in Louisville (that's "Lou-a-vul", not "Lewie-vil") Kentucky. We were pretty cheap, and therefore popular with folks that wanted people or stuff flown, and didn't much care about amenities like coffee bars, leather seats, and sexy paint jobs, and didn't squawk much if the Janitrol heaters were a bit shaky -- that's what coats are for. For that reason, the local undertakers all had KFS's number scribbled on the wall by their phones. When someone died somewhere else and the family wanted the funeral in the River City, we got the call.

Now, undertakers seem to be pretty cost-conscious, and they do not like spending the extra bucks for the big twin when they can charter a C-182 for half the price (“Ain’t nobody we care about gonna get kilt if th’ engine quits.”). Further, they are not about to spend the bucks to transport any more weight or bulk than they have to, and there’s no way they’re paying for either a shipping crate or the return of a loaner. So they do not ship the body in a coffin, casket, or any other container. When you pick up a body, you pick up a body - that's it. We had our own body rack built that clipped into the seat tracks on a 182 when the right and rear seats were removed. And the shipping funeral director won't even give you the sheet he used to wrap the body, so you'd better have one of your own unless you like looking at some naked stiff next to lying next to you all the way home. Fortunately, they do understand that charter pilots simply will NOT handle the body, so I never had any trouble when I pointed them at the airplane, handed them the sheet, and told them I had to go get a weather briefing - please have the body on board by the time I get back. I'd get back in the plane with some six-foot sheet-wrapped lump strapped to the rack (feet forward, head aft), and head for home, where I would show the receiving undertakers the body, and announce the urgent need for a pit stop - please have the body out of the plane by the time I get back.

Now, one time, one of our pilots was sent out to the west end of the state to pick up some poor guy who fell out of a speedboat and drowned while on vacation. The family wanted the body back in Louisville as fast as it could be moved, and we got the call. What you may not know is that a lot of rules about corpse handling and processing change when the body is shipped across state lines. Federal law requires that bodies be "prepped" by embalming and such, before you send one from one state to another. However, intrastate body shipment has no such requirements - it's state laws only, and in Kentucky, you could send 'em "as is." And since this was intrastate, they decided not to spend the extra bucks on any of that preparation. Further, Willie apparently didn't make the strap-down procedure all that clear, and they only got the front (legs) strap on before they laid the sheet over him. Willie chose not to look under the sheet to check for security - smooth day, no turbulence, it wasn't going anywhere…

Well, we pilots know about trapped gases, and altitude effects and all that. And most folks know that dead meat tends to undergo some biochemical changes due to the bacteria and such still very much alive in the body unless cleaned out (see "preparation," above). About the time Willie got through 4000 feet or so, the pressure changes worked enough that some of those gases started expanding and moving into different parts of the body, and the body started to jackknife. You may remember that this one was strapped around the thighs, but not the chest, and the net effect was that the body began to perform a sit-up. Poor Willie was sitting there, cruising along, minding his own business, when he heard the rustle of the sheet falling away, and looked over to see the corpse sitting bolt-upright beside him. I understand Evansville Approach heard him even though he forgot to key the mike. Utterly convinced that the body was coming back to life, he declared an emergency, landed, and was met by the paramedics, who upon discovering the situation, laughed long and hard - insult added to injury.

Willie returned to KFS, delivered the now-completely-strapped down corpse, and informed the Chief Pilot that he was refusing to accept any future body runs. Me, I just made sure that both straps were wrapped AROUND the sheet - not under it. Hey, it's flying time, it's money in my pocket, and in that business, passengers who don't smoke, don't touch things, and don't complain are a pleasure.

 

[poadeleted20]

Ron, Do you not visit the other red board anymore?

It takes me 2-3 hours to go through the red board, and I've simply not had the time for several weeks. I have had too many other things of higher priority demanding my time, and unless things change, I may not go back there.

 

[tonycondon]

classic story Ron

 

[PhantomCougar]

** THREAD REGURGITATION STARTS HERE **

New question, same topic (regarding Commercial aeronautical expereince, not regarding flying with dead people)

My CFI has been saying all summer that the FAA is debating getting rid of the dual X-Country requirements on the commercial, since if you don't know how to navigate by 250 hrs (part 61) you probably dont belong in a plane anyway. Anyone else hear anything about this. Obviously still in effect now.

 

[KennyFlys]

My CFI has been saying all summer that the FAA is debating getting rid of the dual X-Country requirements on the commercial, since if you don't know how to navigate by 250 hrs (part 61) you probably dont belong in a plane anyway. Anyone else hear anything about this. Obviously still in effect now.

While I think that should be the case, the truth is many have become so dependent upon GPS, they couldn't find their way out of a paper bag let alone locate their position using pilotage, dead reckoning or even triangulation on VORs.

For that reason, the GPS display should be turned down and ignored for a XC on the IR training as well as Commercial.

 

[tonycondon]

While I think that should be the case, the truth is many have become so dependent upon GPS, they couldn't find their way out of a paper bag let alone locate their position using pilotage, dead reckoning or even triangulation on VORs.

For that reason, the GPS display should be turned down and ignored for a XC on the IR training as well as Commercial.

my students comm cross countries are entirely pilotage/DR with ETA updates at each checkpoint and a lot of other fundamental navigation and E6B work. the last one i did, which was a flight to Rockford for supper with many PoAer's. Tom showed up at the airport i asked to see his planning and he pulled out his Garmin 195. nice try buddy. line drawn math done and we were off. managed to arrive within about a minute of our enroute recalculated ETA. i love that stuff.

 

[Henning]

What do you call non-solo, non-dual time?

PIC

 

[Henning]

That would be Henning. Hell of a story

Nope, mine was strapped into the co-pilot seat already upright. Mine was the one that "jumped" due to what I was told was "post mortem synaptic release". Still scared the crap out of me....

 

[poadeleted20]

My CFI has been saying all summer that the FAA is debating getting rid of the dual X-Country requirements on the commercial, since if you don't know how to navigate by 250 hrs (part 61) you probably dont belong in a plane anyway. Anyone else hear anything about this. Obviously still in effect now.

The changes to Part 61 proposed earlier this year include a proposal to allow the two dual XC's to be flown under IFR in either visual or instrument conditions, but not to eliminate the flights. Here's the proposal from Docket FAA-2006-26661:

(62) Proposal to allow cross-country
training flights to be performed under
VFR or IFR.​

​

​

The FAA proposes to amend​

§​

61.129(a)(3)(iii) and (iv), (b)(3)(iii) and
(iv), (c)(3)(ii) and (iii), (d)(3)(ii), (e)(3)(ii)
and (iii), (g)(4)(ii) and (iii) to allow the
required cross-country flights for
commercial pilot certification to be​

performed under VFR or IFR.

Currently,​

§ 61.129 requires one crosscountry
flight in day VFR conditions
and one cross-country flight in night
VFR conditions. Since establishing
these cross-country training
requirements, the FAA has received
comments from training schools
requesting that we allow flights to be
performed under IFR. According to the
schools, most applicants for commercial
pilot certification—airplane rating and
some applicants for the helicopter rating
are enrolled in an instrument rating
course at the same time they are
undergoing their commercial pilot
certification training. Thus, it would
make sense to allow the cross-country
training requirements under § 61.129 to
be performed under IFR. The FAA
agrees and is proposing to allow the
cross-country training requirements
under § 61.129 for commercial pilot
certification for the airplane, rotorcraft,
powered-lift, and airship ratings to be​

performed under VFR or IFR.
​

The University Aviation Association Flight Education Committee went on record against that proposal for the following reasons:

We believe that visual navigation is rapidly becoming a lost art, and support the original intent of this rule as expressed by AFS-840 in the Part 61 FAQ file – to demonstrate the ability to navigate outside local airspace by the use of pilotage and dead reckoning. These are important tools for a professional pilot who may be faced with the loss of electronic systems, or may have to fly to areas where instrument navigation isn’t available (charter pilots, bush pilots, agricultural pilots, etc). The fact that some flight schools view this as “burdensome” is not a reason to allow pilots who will be flying with paying passengers to let these skills atrophy.
​

There is no public information on what the FAA is doing with this proposal, how they view the comments, or when a final rule will be disseminated.

 

[Henning]

We believe that visual navigation is rapidly becoming a lost art, and support the original intent of this rule as expressed by AFS-840 in the Part 61 FAQ file – to demonstrate the ability to navigate outside local airspace by the use of pilotage and dead reckoning. These are important tools for a professional pilot who may be faced with the loss of electronic systems, or may have to fly to areas where instrument navigation isn’t available (charter pilots, bush pilots, agricultural pilots, etc). The fact that some flight schools view this as “burdensome” is not a reason to allow pilots who will be flying with paying passengers to let these skills atrophy.

No arguments from me.