Comments on mid-range plan:

spiderweb

spiderweb

Final Approach
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Ben
For those of you following the boring saga of my flight training, I wanted to get your comments on my updated situation.

First of all, I have a few weeks of lessons until I get to mid-May--golden time to finish the IR. I will finish that rating in the Zlin.

In June or July, my CFI will be purchasing a newish C206. (He just sold his C172.) Now, previously I had thought I would get the multi while still a private, but listen to this new development: his insurance will most likely require 15 hours in type for instrument-rated renters. I don't think my C182 time or Saratoga time will count. Anyway, we can certainly make good use of the time. We can practice GPS approaches (with which I am not all too familiar), practice performance maneuvers, and do a few X-Cs together.

But I was thinking that since I have to spend 15 hours in the plane, why don't I use three or four hours doing GPS approaches, but the rest of the time training for the commercial rating? When I'm ready to go, I could just do a few refresher hours in the Saratoga (which doesn't belong to my CFI), and take my test in that. If I did this, when I went for the multi, it would be an add-on to the commercial cert.

Thoughts?
 
Ben, sounds like a good plan.

Will he be OK with you using the 206 for commercial training?
 
wsuffa said:
Ben, sounds like a good plan.

Will he be OK with you using the 206 for commercial training?
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Sure. I suggested this idea to him, and he really liked it. To his mind, it would just mean that I'd be that much more proficient with his NEW airplane! The only thing he might not like would be if I tried to retract the gear!
 
Sounds like a good plan Ben! Why don't you and your CFI Fly up to the board Fly In on May 14 @ Wings Field KLOM you can get some of that time in. Do one of the GPS approaches to Wings and enjoy the day with us. Also tell us more about the 206!
 
wangmyers said:
But I was thinking that since I have to spend 15 hours in the plane, why don't I use three or four hours doing GPS approaches, but the rest of the time training for the commercial rating? When I'm ready to go, I could just do a few refresher hours in the Saratoga (which doesn't belong to my CFI), and take my test in that. If I did this, when I went for the multi, it would be an add-on to the commercial cert.

Thoughts?
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The commercial maneuvers are all about polishing pitch/power/airspeed for a particular aircraft. After an hour or two, what you learn in a C206 will be virtually worthless for demonstrating finesse in a Saratoga. Just an opinion, YMMV. If you follow your proposed syllabus expect to repeat 6-8 hours of the ~10 hours required to train for the commercial checkride.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
The commercial maneuvers are all about polishing pitch/power/airspeed for a particular aircraft. After an hour or two, what you learn in a C206 will be virtually worthless for demonstrating finesse in a Saratoga. Just an opinion, YMMV. If you follow your proposed syllabus expect to repeat 6-8 hours of the ~10 hours required to train for the commercial checkride.
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I agree with Ed on this. I think you're creating more work for yourself than you realize.
 
AdamZ said:
Sounds like a good plan Ben! Why don't you and your CFI Fly up to the board Fly In on May 14 @ Wings Field KLOM you can get some of that time in. Do one of the GPS approaches to Wings and enjoy the day with us. Also tell us more about the 206!
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Oooh. Sounds good, but I'd have to do it in the Zlin. That would be a fun plane to show you, too.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
The commercial maneuvers are all about polishing pitch/power/airspeed for a particular aircraft. After an hour or two, what you learn in a C206 will be virtually worthless for demonstrating finesse in a Saratoga. Just an opinion, YMMV. If you follow your proposed syllabus expect to repeat 6-8 hours of the ~10 hours required to train for the commercial checkride.
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Would you change your mind if you knew that I already have 30 hours in the Saratoga?
 
Ken Ibold said:
I agree with Ed on this. I think you're creating more work for yourself than you realize.
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See my response to Ed.
 
wangmyers said:
Would you change your mind if you knew that I already have 30 hours in the Saratoga?
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Depends on what you did in those 30 hours. Did you shoot landings and then fly cross country, or did you do 180-degree power off accuracy landings, steep spirals, chandelles, lazy-8s and 8s on pylons?

Those don't have much applicability in the real world, they are intended to show you have mastered that airplane (when in fact you have only mastered those maneuvers, but that's a different issue). Flying the 206 might even introduce problems because the two types handle so differently. You'll have to unlearn what you have learned to some extent before you can learn it again in a different airplane, and then in the check ride you might start using the wrong technique.

Now, if you really want to pursue this strategy, you can take the bulk of the checkride in the 206 and then use the Saratoga only for the complex portion. The idea is that the examiner will only ask you to demonstrate that you know how to work the gear in the Saratoga, which you already know. However, the examiner could ask you to do any of the commercial maneuvers in the Saratoga as well, plus you'd have to have the detailed systems knowledge. So if you go this way try to get a feel for how the examiner will treat this. If you feel confident he or she will just stick with the retract portion, then this might be the way to go.
 
Ken Ibold said:
Now, if you really want to pursue this strategy, you can take the bulk of the checkride in the 206 and then use the Saratoga only for the complex portion. The idea is that the examiner will only ask you to demonstrate that you know how to work the gear in the Saratoga, which you already know. However, the examiner could ask you to do any of the commercial maneuvers in the Saratoga as well, plus you'd have to have the detailed systems knowledge. So if you go this way try to get a feel for how the examiner will treat this. If you feel confident he or she will just stick with the retract portion, then this might be the way to go.
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Interesting. This is how my CFI suggested I do it. He thought that the examiner would be fine with taking most of the ride in the C206, and then letting me fly the Saratoga to demo the gear.

See, no matter what, I have to do 15 hours in the C206. Neither I nor my CFI feels I would need that much time (or even half of it), which is what got me to thinking. While getting a checkout in the new plane, why not also try lazy 8s, chandelles, and power-off 180s?
 
Hey Ben, long time no see...

Glad to hear you've gotten some high performance and complex time, how goes the flying in general?

So how new is this 206? Is is one of the glass panel planes? Haven't flown a G1000 plane yet, but been wanting to.

If you are ever down here and want some multi-time, drop me a line and I'll take you flying in the Twin Comanche. :)
 
wangmyers said:
Would you change your mind if you knew that I already have 30 hours in the Saratoga?
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No. The commercial is learning pitch/power/airspeed and control forces for chandelles, lazy eights, eights on pylons, etc. Your 30 Saratoga hours are nice, but they won't help you a whole lot when it comes to nailing those maneuvers. 10 hours polishing those maneuvers in a C206 will be about as useful.

It is your money and your flight time. If you have money and time to spare do it the way you propose, but be prepared to spend an extra 6-8 hours in the Saratoga.
 
wangmyers said:
Interesting. This is how my CFI suggested I do it. He thought that the examiner would be fine with taking most of the ride in the C206, and then letting me fly the Saratoga to demo the gear.

See, no matter what, I have to do 15 hours in the C206. Neither I nor my CFI feels I would need that much time (or even half of it), which is what got me to thinking. While getting a checkout in the new plane, why not also try lazy 8s, chandelles, and power-off 180s?
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I'd go with the plan that Ken outlined. AFaIK you won't be required to demonstrate any maneuvers in the Saratoga except maybe a few landings (short. soft, etc), with the bulk of the work in the 206.

OTOH, I think you'd better start working out in the gym to prepare for this. Neither the 206 nor the Saratoga is what I'd call light on the controls, and some of the commercial maneuvers require you to fly out of trim (or change it way too often).

BTW, often the time in type requirement for insurance can be negotiated, especially if you have a reasonable amount of time in something reasonably similar like the 182. Your Saratoga time might also help convince the underwriter that you are capable of handling a heavier plane as well. In any case I'd write out a proposal for transitioning to the 206 that details the training you will get in the first few hours including a thorough checkout by a competent/experienced 206 pilot and list your 182 and PA-32 time. It can't hurt to try.
 
Whirlwind said:
Hey Ben, long time no see...

Glad to hear you've gotten some high performance and complex time, how goes the flying in general?

So how new is this 206? Is is one of the glass panel planes? Haven't flown a G1000 plane yet, but been wanting to.

If you are ever down here and want some multi-time, drop me a line and I'll take you flying in the Twin Comanche. :)
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Thanks! But, who is this? :eek:
 
lancefisher said:
OTOH, I think you'd better start working out in the gym to prepare for this. Neither the 206 nor the Saratoga is what I'd call light on the controls, and some of the commercial maneuvers require you to fly out of trim (or change it way too often).

BTW, often the time in type requirement for insurance can be negotiated, especially if you have a reasonable amount of time in something reasonably similar like the 182. Your Saratoga time might also help convince the underwriter that you are capable of handling a heavier plane as well. In any case I'd write out a proposal for transitioning to the 206 that details the training you will get in the first few hours including a thorough checkout by a competent/experienced 206 pilot and list your 182 and PA-32 time. It can't hurt to try.
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Thanks, Lance. Yep, I know that the Saratoga is a truck. I like your idea of writing out a plan!
 
If you're already skilled & amped up besides, it's no problem -they're easy planes to fly.

Meeting multiple tasks while training has always been my approach when trying to minimize costs i.e: once I decided I'd do my first Cardinal checkout combined with under the hood IFR competency check, at a new FBO, with a new instructor... other than a lot of sweat dripping off the yoke, no real problems.

Many say, if you don't push yourself to the point that you're near failure, how do you know what your real potential is ?
 
Ben-

Another consideration is whether the DE will charge more for a split checkride, plus it will cost you more for plane use/gas to do a split ride. The comm checkride (airborne portion only) normal only takes ~1 hr, sometimes less. If you have to get out, preflight another (complex) plane, takeoff, do a couple landings, it will add significantly to the required time. It's money, but it also adds to the stress of a checkride situation. If it was me, I'd do the whole thing in the 'Toga. I agree with others that the time spent learning commercial manuevers in the 206 won't translate well at all to the 'Toga.

If you want to do something fun/useful while building time in the 206, start learning fly it from the right seat after you've gotten comfortable in the left.

Jeff
 
wangmyers said:
Thanks! But, who is this? :eek:
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Oh, thought you knew my username... :)

This is Jason, from Addison... I use this username here and on FlightInfo...
 
Ben, when I did my commercial the plane I flew all the time was a Cherokee 6 (fixed gear as well). I did all the manoeuvers in the 6 as that was the plane I wanted to be proficient in. I did all the landings in an Arrow in order to demonstrate the complex factor. DE was fine with that.

Of course two months later I bought into a partnership on an Arrow so in retrospect I should have done that one but hind sight is always 20/20. Keep thinking I should get a CFI and learn the Commercial manoeuvers in the Arrow now. One of these days!
 
Re: the CFI in a complex airplane...

I wanted to do my multi-commercial first, then go back and do my single commercial, but my CFI pointed out to me that I'd probably do a lot more teaching in the 172RG than twin teaching in the multi, and I'd be better off teaching if I did my commercial in the 172RG.

Keep in mind that I owned a straight legged 172, so I was less than excited about paying for a rental 172RG, but in the end I did it, and feel I learned more for it, at least from a teaching point of view.

I went on to instruct two students for their commercial rating in the 172RG, as well as one who did 15 hours with me in the T-210. I'm glad I went ahead and did it that way, because of that.

Funny, because to date, while I've got 250 hours of multi time, I have not yet gotten my MEI. Just haven't had the time I suppose... :)
 
Jeff Oslick said:
Ben-

Another consideration is whether the DE will charge more for a split checkride, plus it will cost you more for plane use/gas to do a split ride. The comm checkride (airborne portion only) normal only takes ~1 hr, sometimes less. If you have to get out, preflight another (complex) plane, takeoff, do a couple landings, it will add significantly to the required time. It's money, but it also adds to the stress of a checkride situation. If it was me, I'd do the whole thing in the 'Toga. I agree with others that the time spent learning commercial manuevers in the 206 won't translate well at all to the 'Toga.

If you want to do something fun/useful while building time in the 206, start learning fly it from the right seat after you've gotten comfortable in the left.

Jeff
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Thanks for your thoughts. I guess it looks like the 15 hours in the C206 will be mostly for checkout, GPS approaches, and a few X-Cs, huh! Yeah, the Saratoga isn't exactly light on the controlls, and is really best for IFR X-Cs where it is as stable as you can get.
 
Whirlwind said:
Oh, thought you knew my username... :)

This is Jason, from Addison... I use this username here and on FlightInfo...
Click to expand...

Ahh. Wow--you look so different in your avatar!
 
wangmyers said:
Thanks for your thoughts. I guess it looks like the 15 hours in the C206 will be mostly for checkout, GPS approaches, and a few X-Cs, huh! Yeah, the Saratoga isn't exactly light on the controlls, and is really best for IFR X-Cs where it is as stable as you can get.
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Ben, since I'm the one that rained the hardest on your parade, I thought I should point out that the idea of doing the maneuvers in the the C206 followed by demonstrating complex proficiency in the Saratoga is certainly workable. My negative comments about the C206/Saratoga idea revolved around what I thought was a plan to train in the C206 and then fly the entire checkride in the Saratoga. That's a bad idea. The other version is quite workable.
 
wangmyers said:
Ahh. Wow--you look so different in your avatar!
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Haha... You know that is Rebecca Gayheart, whom I enjoyed watching in the TV show Earth 2.

In any case, beautiful women and aviation go together, so it seemed to fit. :D
 
Ed Guthrie said:
Ben, since I'm the one that rained the hardest on your parade, I thought I should point out that the idea of doing the maneuvers in the the C206 followed by demonstrating complex proficiency in the Saratoga is certainly workable. My negative comments about the C206/Saratoga idea revolved around what I thought was a plan to train in the C206 and then fly the entire checkride in the Saratoga. That's a bad idea. The other version is quite workable.
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Thanks for emphasizing that, Ed. Again, this is what my CFI suggested. Also, the insurance requirements might turn out differently, in the end. Maybe they'll give me some credit for the 30 hours in the Saratoga or the 15 hours in the C182. Who knows.
 
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