Comm pilot requirements

[Tom-D]

Are you required to be a CP to borrow a AG-Cat and dust your own crop?

How about if you dust your aircraft owners crop, for use of the Ag Cat?

 

[bbchien]

Are you required to be a CP to borrow a AG-Cat and dust your own crop?

No. Ref is discussion on Sept 24 (I believe) in the Federal Register, by Alberta Brown, discussing the tightening of reimbursement rules.

How about if you dust your aircraft owners crop, for use of the Ag Cat?[/QUOTE] Yes. Same reference.

 

[Henning]

Are you required to be a CP to borrow a AG-Cat and dust your own crop?

How about if you dust your aircraft owners crop, for use of the Ag Cat?

1) no
2) yes

However, you need to pass a pt 137 ride before you do either. This can be done in front of the FAA, typically they'll have you do some spray passes at the airport and watch you from the ground. You can also get signed off by someone with an Operators Certificate.

Now comes the question of what you are spraying and where. Typically for fertilizer and seeding work, nothing else is required, however if you are spraying pesticide, you will also need the State licence for pesticide applications, which isn't really a big deal, check with your County Ag Agent and they'll be able to set you up. Often times they hold weekend seminars with review and testing. Many states require extra certification for some chemicals such as 2-4-d. Good luck, Ag Cats a fun plane to fly, I prefer the A model to the B, but some people clip the B wings into the aileron, and they handle nicely as well. I can make a clip wing B with the 1340-AN2 out work a 402 turbine Airtractor because I can turn way inside it.

 

[Tom-D]

"Now comes the question of what you are spraying and where. "

It seems like a Potatoe farmer on Skagit Flats got his foot broke in an Auto accident, he has contracts to spray several farmers crops, One of them sprayed every ones crop, in May. FAA wanted to know who. Ag-Cat owner says he don't know, cause he was in the hospital. So the FAA prop locked the Ag-Cat.

Some one removed the 985 from the Ag-Cat and sat it on the ground, now the crop got sprayed again, and the Ag Cat is no where to be found.

I suspect there was a spare 985/prop, around some where. I also suspect there are a few farmers that know how to spray, but don't have Comm certificates.

 

[poadeleted20]

Are you required to be a CP to borrow a AG-Cat and dust your own crop?

Agree with Henning and Bruce -- the key here is that the AgCat owner isn't getting anything out of the deal, so there is there is no "quid pro quo," no money is changing hands, and charity (loaning the use of the aircraft) is legal.

How about if you dust your aircraft owners crop, for use of the Ag Cat?

Definite "quid pro quo" -- you get flying time in return for providing a service to the aircraft owner. Commercial certificate is definitely needed.

In addition, if a third party's crop was dusted, the third party couldn't pay a dime for the service to either the AgCat owner or the borrowing pilot. However, a gratuitous dusting where no money changed hands would be legal. But before anyone tries to work around this with some sort of backhand swap of services or money, the old "now try to find the umbrella" trick won't work -- if the Feds get wind of this, they WILL bring in the accountants and they WILL find the umbrella. And it sounds from Tom's follow-up that they did go looking for it.

 

[AirBaker]

Maybe if your pilotage skills weren't on par and you accidentally sprayed both lots?

 

[Henning]

Maybe if your pilotage skills weren't on par and you accidentally sprayed both lots?

Kinda hard when your swath width is only about 50' on a Cat.

 

[Henning]

"Now comes the question of what you are spraying and where. "

It seems like a Potatoe farmer on Skagit Flats got his foot broke in an Auto accident, he has contracts to spray several farmers crops, One of them sprayed every ones crop, in May. FAA wanted to know who. Ag-Cat owner says he don't know, cause he was in the hospital. So the FAA prop locked the Ag-Cat.

Some one removed the 985 from the Ag-Cat and sat it on the ground, now the crop got sprayed again, and the Ag Cat is no where to be found.

I suspect there was a spare 985/prop, around some where. I also suspect there are a few farmers that know how to spray, but don't have Comm certificates.

Well, like I said, if one guy took the plane, sprayed his crops and the other guys crops and didn't collect for it (and didn't log the time) he didn't particularly need a Cmm, however, he would most definitely needed a 137 sign off, and sice they were spraying a fungicide, the also needed applicators licenses from the state. I immagine the feds are a bit ****ed off at this point, and they may pull in the FBI under the guise of the Patriot act, they won't find a missing Ag plane ammusing in the least. Ruby Ridge is gonna come to Washington.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Agree with Henning and Bruce -- the key here is that the AgCat owner isn't getting anything out of the deal, so there is there is no "quid pro quo," no money is changing hands, and charity (loaning the use of the aircraft) is legal.

Regarding the first question, neither Quid, Pro, nor Quo enter the discussion at all, and I don't believe either Henning nor Bruce were confused on that point, but you may be. RTFQ, a farmer borrowed an aircraft and dusted his own field. What, you think the AgCat owner paid the farmer/pilot to spray the farmer/pilot's own field using the AgCat owner's aircraft? I should find such friends.

The key here is that the entire scenario is at most an aircraft rental or lease situation, neither of which requires a COM certificate.

 

[poadeleted20]

Regarding the first question, neither Quid, Pro, nor Quo enter the discussion at all, and I don't believe either Henning nor Bruce were confused on that point, but you may be. RTFQ, a farmer borrowed an aircraft and dusted his own field.

I suggest reading BOTH of the original questions. In the second, there is most definitely an exchange of items of value (use of the aircraft for dusting the aircraft owner's crop), i.e., compensation exists. As for the first question, the issue of quid pro quo (or lack thereof) is the reason why the Commercial is NOT required -- no hire or compensation involved.

 

[bbchien]

I immagine the feds are a bit ****ed off at this point, and they may pull in the FBI under the guise of the Patriot act, they won't find a missing Ag plane ammusing in the least. Ruby Ridge is gonna come to Washington.

You canNOT keep a farmer down. No Way. Remember, it was the FARMERS who overthrew Generalissimo Chang, when the currency was inflated to pay the war (against the warlords) debt and they all went bankrupt. You will LOSE if you take on the farmers. They will lose too, but the government loses more.

Sigh.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

I suggest reading BOTH of the original questions.

I suggest you RTFQ and then RTFR (that last "R" being "REPLY"). I specifically addressed the first question and only the first question. The fact that you answered the second question correctly has no bearing on whether or not you butchered the first question. The first question is at best a rental or lease situation. You suggested that a criteria for it not being a commercial op would be that no money change hands (specifically you stated that the AgCat owner receive no compensation at all). Your answer to the first question provides incorrect criteria/reasons. The farmer could pay the AgCat owner any amount of money at all for the aircraft rental/lease and it still wouldn't be a commercial pilot operation.

 

[bbchien]

You know, I just issued a Student Pilot Cert to a farmer today, from about 40 miles out of here. He is 46 years old, has 20/20 distant vision, and figured he'd was pretty healthy. Couldn't cut more than 20/50 at 18 inches. He said, "give me ten minutes." I said, OK but if he's not back in ten I move on to the next patient who will be there. In 8' and 20 seconds he's back with a pair of Walgreen's readers and shoots 20/25 (1.5 diopters). Issued with the restriction "must possess glasses for near vision". Took his pic (per local TSA guy).

No way can los federales beat the practical, down to earth, "can fix it" attitude of the farmer. He's a businessman, he's practical, and he can do everything reasonably well. They are gonna spray the field, one way or another. I'd bet on an FAA guy "disappearing" if it gets too hot.

An acquaintance of mine about 50 miles east of here (AME) showed up on his home field with an FAA baseball hat on. He quickly doffed it when he saw the 12 gauge pointed his way.

Little do the Washingtonians know how fragile is our republic.

Written from deep in Farm Country. "Wheels up in Beans, Down in corn".

 

[poadeleted3]

snip
No way can los federales beat the practical, down to earth, "can fix it" attitude of the farmer. He's a businessman, he's practical, and he can do everything reasonably well. They are gonna spray the field, one way or another. I'd bet on an FAA guy "disappearing" if it gets too hot.

snip

Fertilizer is fertilizer. What does the farmer care where it came from?

 

[Tom-D]

You know, I just issued a Student Pilot Cert to a farmer today, from about 40 miles out of here. He is 46 years old, has 20/20 distant vision, and figured he'd was pretty healthy. Couldn't cut more than 20/50 at 18 inches. He said, "give me ten minutes." I said, OK but if he's not back in ten I move on to the next patient who will be there. In 8' and 20 seconds he's back with a pair of Walgreen's readers and shoots 20/25 (1.5 diopters). Issued with the restriction "must possess glasses for near vision". Took his pic (per local TSA guy).

No way can los federales beat the practical, down to earth, "can fix it" attitude of the farmer. He's a businessman, he's practical, and he can do everything reasonably well. They are gonna spray the field, one way or another. I'd bet on an FAA guy "disappearing" if it gets too hot.

An acquaintance of mine about 50 miles east of here (AME) showed up on his home field with an FAA baseball hat on. He quickly doffed it when he saw the 12 gauge pointed his way.

Little do the Washingtonians know how fragile is our republic.

Written from deep in Farm Country. "Wheels up in Beans, Down in corn".

I'll bet there are enough data tags and log books to mix and match several Ag-Cats the one the feds are looking for may or may not ever be seen again.

 

[Henning]

I'll bet there are enough data tags and log books to mix and match several Ag-Cats the one the feds are looking for may or may not ever be seen again.

I have three of them in my memento box. Never a lack of spare Ag Plane Data tags that's for sure.