comm multi add-on experience requirements

[mantakos]

I have a rough scheme to do a CP-ASEL, and then follow up with a CP-AMEL, and I'm trying to figure out what the exact requirements are to do the CP-AMEL add-on.

61.129 is clear enough in detailing the experience requirements for the CP-AMEL, but 61.63 says that when adding on a class rating, you don't need the "specified training time requirements". This seems pretty clearly to apply to the "20 hours of training", i.e. the "dual" requirements, but does it also exempt you from the "10 hours of solo flight time in a multi-engined airplane" (and the solo cross-country, the solo night hours, etc.)?
-harry

 

[KennyFlys]

I'd have to dig into Part 61 but the general rule is going for a Commercial Multi first and later adding a Commercial Single is easier with fewer maneuvers.

 

[tonycondon]

often the commercial multi is done first, mostly to take care of the commercial checkride requirement for doing takeoffs and landings in a complex airplane. if you are building time towards the commercial, renting singles is cheaper, so going single then multi can be cheaper in the long run. There is no hour requirement for training time to add on the multi rating. Pt. 141 syllabi for the full commercial/multi/instrument add on budget 15 hrs and I think thats a good starting point. If you were going for VFR only Multi it would be less.

 

[poadeleted20]

There is no minimum hours requirement for the ME add-on at the Commercial level, and that includes no requirement for solo time. However, unlike the PPL level ME add-on, if you already have an IR on your Commercial-ASEL, you cannot opt to do the ME add-on as "VFR-only."

The ME add-on program is usually done as three stages. Stage one is essentially a transition course to the ME plane being used (systems operation, stalls, slow flight, basic maneuvering like steep 360's, all types takeoffs and landings) with all engines operating. Stage two introduces engine failures, including failures on takeoff, failures in flight, failures in the pattern, landing with only one running, and demonstration of what happens at Vmc (and how to recover from what happens). Stage three is instruments, with a couple of all engine approaches, and then engine failures under the hood and during approach leading to an engine-out instrument approach. In most cases, this will take 8-15 hours of training depending on your familiarity with the twin being used (e.g., a very experienced Arrow pilot training in a Seminole may not need as much time as a low-time C-172RG pilot training in a Baron).

The ME add-on practical test will have a relatively short oral focusing on ME aerodyanics and OEI procedures and performance. You'll then take off in visual conditions, and head to the practice area (most examiners want to see you fly your first engine failure well away from the ground). You'll do the basic stalls, slow flight, and steep turns in the practice area, and then lose an engine and to basic maneuvering with one engine out. At some point, you'll do the full feather and restart drill. Then, on goes the hood and it's simulated IFR back to the airport for an engine failure on approach to a simulated single-engine landing. More takeoffs and landings with engine failures tossed in, and you're done.

 

[Danos]

I finished the training for the M.E. commercial in a bit more than 5 hours so I don't think theres a minimum time requirement for the add on. From what I understand it makes the oral part of the checkride easier if you do the single commercial initially because the examiner probably won't ask about complex systems since you already went thru that.

 

[poadeleted20]

I finished the training for the M.E. commercial in a bit more than 5 hours

Sounds like the folks they show in the diet plan adds who lost 50 pounds in five weeks*

*Results not typical

From what I understand it makes the oral part of the checkride easier if you do the single commercial initially because the examiner probably won't ask about complex systems since you already went thru that.

Every system in the twin in which you take the ride is fair game, and every ME check I've seen has included ample discussion on all systems in that particular type including gear, flaps, and props. Remember that the systems in a Mooney ain't the same as those in a Seminole.

 

[gismo]

Sounds like the folks they show in the diet plan adds who lost 50 pounds in five weeks*
*Results not typical

I don't think it took me much more than that but I had several hundred multi hours at the time so that might have helped. Then again, I completed the AMEL-PP(IR) with 6 hrs of ME time in my logbook including the 1.5 hr checkride. And I doubt that this is due to any "natural" skill since I took something like 65 hrs for ASEL-PP when the average was closer to 50 hrs and at least 50 hrs of training time for the IR (over a 3 yr period).

Every system in the twin in which you take the ride is fair game, and every ME check I've seen has included ample discussion on all systems in that particular type including gear, flaps, and props. Remember that the systems in a Mooney ain't the same as those in a Seminole.

That makes sense. I did AMEL-CP before adding ASEL-CP and I did have to explain all the systems in the single engine airplane during the oral for the latter. Of course there weren't a lot of systems to describe on a Porterfield Collegiate which has no electrical, vacuum, or hydraulic systems (even the brakes are pure mechanical). When I did the ASES-CP the DE focused on the systems unique to seaplanes but that may have been because it was the same DE I used for ASEL-CP a year earlier.

 

[nosehair]

61.63 says that when adding on a class rating, you don't need the "specified training time requirements". This seems pretty clearly to apply to the "20 hours of training", i.e. the "dual" requirements, but does it also exempt you from the "10 hours of solo flight time in a multi-engined airplane"

I see your confusion on the word "training", if you think of training as dual only.

Look at 61.109 Private Pilots experience requirements: "...at least 40 hours flight time that includes 20 hours of flight training with an authorized instructor and 10 hours solo flight training..."

So, the solo time requirements for a certificate count as "training."

so, no, there is no specific time requirement for an add-on in class.

 

[jwriteclub]

However, unlike the PPL level ME add-on, if you already have an IR on your Commercial-ASEL, you cannot opt to do the ME add-on as "VFR-only."

Actually as with all things FAA, there are two (well 1&1/2) exceptions to this. This happened recently to an instructor I know, who actually called Oklahoma City for clarification. The two circumstances under which a CP-ASEL + IFR can take a VFR only ride are:

1) Voluntarily surrender their IFR certificate
2) Take the ride in an aircraft that is not IFR legal.

~ Christopher

 

[nosehair]

2) Take the ride in an aircraft that is not IFR legal.

?? not required anyway.

 

[poadeleted20]

I don't think it took me much more than that but I had several hundred multi hours at the time so that might have helped.

I suppose it would, but I thought we were talking about adding AMEL with no prior ME ratings.

 

[poadeleted20]

Actually as with all things FAA, there are two (well 1&1/2) exceptions to this. This happened recently to an instructor I know, who actually called Oklahoma City for clarification. The two circumstances under which a CP-ASEL + IFR can take a VFR only ride are:
1) Voluntarily surrender their IFR certificate
2) Take the ride in an aircraft that is not IFR legal.

I'll buy off on option 1, but I don't think the FAA will accept option 2 above the Private level -- I think they'll say you failed to provide an aircraft capable of performing the required tasks and send you home. See page 7 of the Commercial-Airplane PTS. If your instructor has a written response that says otherwise, I'd like to see it.

 

[gismo]

I'll buy off on option 1, but I don't think the FAA will accept option 2 above the Private level -- I think they'll say you failed to provide an aircraft capable of performing the required tasks and send you home. See page 7 of the Commercial-Airplane PTS. If your instructor has a written response that says otherwise, I'd like to see it.

I didn't think the airplane used on the CP-AMEL was required to be "IFR legal" in the first place. I do believe that it needs to be equipped to perform the tasks required but since the ride would normally be done under VFR with the instrument portion simulated, you'd need equipment to fly under the hood and perform one or more approaches as specified in the PTS. IOW, the altimeter, and VOR checks wouldn't be needed nor would a current DB for an IFR GPS be required etc.

 

[jwriteclub]

Ron,

I may have it wrong, but I believe that he has a written response that if the aircraft is not outfitted for IFR, the student can take a VFR only ride.

Next time I see him I'll ask.

~ Christopher

 

[poadeleted20]

I may have it wrong, but I believe that he has a written response that if the aircraft is not outfitted for IFR, the student can take a VFR only ride.

As I said, that's true for PPL ME add-on, but I don't think it's true for CPL ME add-on. Please be sure the FSDO understands the question is about CPL.

 

[poadeleted20]

I didn't think the airplane used on the CP-AMEL was required to be "IFR legal" in the first place. I do believe that it needs to be equipped to perform the tasks required but since the ride would normally be done under VFR with the instrument portion simulated, you'd need equipment to fly under the hood and perform one or more approaches as specified in the PTS. IOW, the altimeter, and VOR checks wouldn't be needed nor would a current DB for an IFR GPS be required etc.

I believe you are correct, but it would need the necessary instruments and radios to be able to do a simulated instrument approach, and I also believe that there is no option whatsoever (regardless of the aircraft's capability) to do a ME add-on to a C-ASEL-IA without completing the IR tasks. The only way you can avoid those tasks on the Commercial ME add-on ride is if you don't have an IR at all, or you have already done the ME IR tasks at the PPL level (i.e., you already hold a P-AMEL-IA not limited to VFR).

 

[DeeG]

I'm not sure if things have changed in the last 10 years, but since you'll probably need the IFR sooner or later...

I did

PPSEL

then IFR in the single

then in ONE checkride:

Multi-Comm-IFR

That way, you can do the single comm add on in a 152 if you want.

But then again, the last time I looked at an FAR was two weeks ago and it was a 2000 edition that was sitting on the desk at the heliport.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm not sure if things have changed in the last 10 years, but since you'll probably need the IFR sooner or later...

I did

PPSEL

then IFR in the single

then in ONE checkride:

Multi-Comm-IFR

That way, you can do the single comm add on in a 152 if you want.

But then again, the last time I looked at an FAR was two weeks ago and it was a 2000 edition that was sitting on the desk at the heliport.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

You are not wrong -- that path, though not often taken, still works today.