Coming in hot

ahmad

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Midwest Aviator
So I take off in my c150 on rwy 5 and announced I'd be doing a left downwind departure to the west. a cirrus calls 8 miles out to the east and says he'll be entering the left downwind for rwy 5. I turn crosswind and he reports 3 miles out. as I turn downwind he calls "I'm entering downwind for rwy 5 coming in hot". I call and ask if he has me in sight. he says no and I hope I don't run into you...are you in your little 150? I am showing him 300 ft above and about a mile behind me. I felt it was too close for comfort so I descended another 200 ft to stay below him (now only 500 ft agl in the pattern) until I saw him turn base on adsb before I climbed to 4500 and exit the area.

not cool me thinks.
 
Unsure of why you you wouldn't have exited on the crosswind to deconflict with the Cirri?

Or continued on runway heading and climbed above pattern altitude while waiting on the Cirri.

Putting yourself into a traffic conflict and giving away altitude was not the best solution to this problem.

Cirri guy was totally wrong, with a reckless attitude, all the more reason to navigate away from him.
 
Unsure of why you you wouldn't have exited on the crosswind to deconflict with the Cirri?

Or continued on runway heading and climbed above pattern altitude while waiting on the Cirri.

Putting yourself into a traffic conflict and giving away altitude was not the best solution to this problem.

Cirri guy was totally wrong, with a reckless attitude, all the more reason to navigate away from him.
I didn't know he was 3 miles out till I had turned crosswind. after hearing him 3 miles out I turned downwind thinking I would be going away and that he'd be slowing down.

looking back I think you are correct in that I could have just continued crosswind but I was slow, very slow in the 150.
 
So I take off in my c150 on rwy 5 and announced I'd be doing a left downwind departure to the west. a cirrus calls 8 miles out to the east and says he'll be entering the left downwind for rwy 5. I turn crosswind and he reports 3 miles out. as I turn downwind he calls "I'm entering downwind for rwy 5 coming in hot". I call and ask if he has me in sight. he says no and I hope I don't run into you...are you in your little 150? I am showing him 300 ft above and about a mile behind me. I felt it was too close for comfort so I descended another 200 ft to stay below him (now only 500 ft agl in the pattern) until I saw him turn base on adsb before I climbed to 4500 and exit the area.

not cool me thinks.

Which of these standard departures did you do?

If departing the traffic pattern, the pilot should continue straight out or exit with a 45° turn (to the left when in a left-hand traffic pattern or to the right when in a right-hand traffic pattern) beyond the departure end of the runway after reaching the traffic pattern altitude.

Airplane Flying Handbook (FAA-H-8083-3C) - Chapter 8​

 
I’ve noticed the number of entitled people in the air are increasing. Like people converging with you, or circling, or without adsb even. Yesterday there was an aerobatic aircraft, I thought it was a bird then a drone then you see this huge airplane doing aerobatics literally in front of you. He’s above you now he’s below you. I just don’t want him to run into me while in a loop or dive.
 
I’ve noticed the number of entitled people in the air are increasing. Like people converging with you, or circling, or without adsb even. Yesterday there was an aerobatic aircraft, I thought it was a bird then a drone then you see this huge airplane doing aerobatics literally in front of you. He’s above you now he’s below you. I just don’t want him to run into me while in a loop or dive.
Please provide a towel…you’re dripping irony all over the floor. :rolleyes1:
 
… I am showing him 300 ft above and about a mile behind me. I felt it was too close for comfort….
1 mile is too close??? An uncontrolled airport with a single 3000 foot runway will have an entire pattern length of about 1 mile, and I’ve seen 3 planes all in the pattern of such fields many times without any of them being “too close”. 4 planes I suppose could be done safely if everyone is on their game…you and a cirrus? Not even close to “too close”.
 
1 mile is too close??? An uncontrolled airport with a single 3000 foot runway will have an entire pattern length of about 1 mile, and I’ve seen 3 planes all in the pattern of such fields many times without any of them being “too close”. 4 planes I suppose could be done safely if everyone is on their game…you and a cirrus? Not even close to “too close”.
That's roughly a minute with the speed difference between a hot Cirri and a not hot C-150?

If OP had ADSB tracking the time to identify traffic was much earlier than being run down by a Cirri on a downwind traffic conflict.
 
So I take off in my c150 on rwy 5 and announced I'd be doing a left downwind departure to the west. a cirrus calls 8 miles out to the east and says he'll be entering the left downwind for rwy 5. I turn crosswind and he reports 3 miles out. as I turn downwind he calls "I'm entering downwind for rwy 5 coming in hot". I call and ask if he has me in sight. he says no and I hope I don't run into you...are you in your little 150? I am showing him 300 ft above and about a mile behind me. I felt it was too close for comfort so I descended another 200 ft to stay below him (now only 500 ft agl in the pattern) until I saw him turn base on adsb before I climbed to 4500 and exit the area.

not cool me thinks.

Hey OP, where in this diagram were you? If not @6, why are you complaining?

departure1.PNGdep2.PNG
 
Hey OP, where in this diagram were you? If not @6, why are you complaining?

Maybe he's complaining because a reckless pilot who knew he was overtaking a slower aircraft without it being in sight didn't seem to care or slow down?

Worth noting, your reference also says this: "In any case, the pilot should adjust the airspeed, when necessary, so that it is compatible with the airspeed of other aircraft in the traffic pattern."...
 
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Maybe he's complaining because a reckless pilot who knew he was overtaking a slower aircraft without it being in sight didn't seem to care or slow down?

Worth noting, your reference also says this: "In any case, the pilot should adjust the airspeed, when necessary, so that it is compatible with the airspeed of other aircraft in the traffic pattern."...

Yeah, the onus is on the aircraft entering the pattern to locate the other aircraft in the pattern. The attitude (apparently) displayed by the Cirrus pilot is bothersome for me, although the separation (as explained by the Cessna pilot) doesn't really bother me.
 
Ok I do have some blame to take here. I should have departed at position 6 at the 45 degree offset. The 1 mile separation felt too close for comfort in this instance only because the cirrus was coming behind me "hot" and not at all slowing and 200-300 feet above.
 
Ahmad,
The Cirrus was wrong, you were in the pattern before him and so the Cirrus should have given you right of way. That being said playing chicken in the air can lead to a bad outcome. You felt uncomfortable, and that is what matters. You took evasive action and did what you needed to do to be safe. The other way could have resulted in us discussing you and the Cirrus after the collision. Kudos to you!
 
Ok I do have some blame to take here. I should have departed at position 6 at the 45 degree offset. The 1 mile separation felt too close for comfort in this instance only because the cirrus was coming behind me "hot" and not at all slowing and 200-300 feet above.

Not really. The FAA recommends departing at 6, but does not mandate it. Relative to the cirrus, you were at 2, he was at 1. The overtaking aircraft should stay clear. This guy didn't and didn't care.

BZ captain. Good job.
 
The OPs departure calls/turns do not make sense for a westerly departure. By turning downwind he effectively was going south. IF he had just stayed crosswind this would have been avoided and he would have been heading west...for his announced west departure.

In other words, you cant call it a departure if you stay in the pattern.

If the FAA recommendations would have been followed, there would be no story to tell and no special figuring needed by anyone arriving.
 
Not really. The FAA recommends departing at 6, but does not mandate it. Relative to the cirrus, you were at 2, he was at 1. The overtaking aircraft should stay clear. This guy didn't and didn't care.

BZ captain. Good job.
Thanks.
He wasn't even in 1. He basically came in straight to join the downwind. Had I heard him earlier I would have just departed straight out till I was clear of him.
 
The OPs departure calls/turns do not make sense for a westerly departure. By turning downwind he effectively was going south. IF he had just stayed crosswind this would have been avoided and he would have been heading west...for his announced west departure.

In other words, you cant call it a departure if you stay in the pattern.

If the FAA recommendations would have been followed, there would be no story to tell and no special figuring needed by anyone arriving.
My on course heading was 240. That's why I thought I'd depart via left downwind. there were no calls of traffic when I made the calls. I only heard him call once I turned crosswind.
If I had stayed in the crosswind at our separation I think that would have posed more danger, at least that's what I thought. I turned downwind basically to go away from him.

Thus was definitely a good learning experience and I certainly do think I could have done better.
 
My on course heading was 240. That's why I thought I'd depart via left downwind. there were no calls of traffic when I made the calls. I only heard him call once I turned crosswind.
If I had stayed in the crosswind at our separation I think that would have posed more danger, at least that's what I thought. I turned downwind basically to go away from him.

Thus was definitely a good learning experience and I certainly do think I could have done better.

Good work. Thanks for sharing.

Still, that other guy sounded like an A hole
 
Hey OP, where in this diagram were you? If not @6, why are you complaining?

View attachment 125075View attachment 125076
This is one FAA recommendation that I've never understood. If you are taking off to the east and your on-course heading is to the west, the safest option is to join the downwind just like the other traffic in the pattern, and then just continue to the west (out of the airport environment). Flying (6) and then turning to the west puts you in potential conflict with traffic joining on the 45 (position 1), as well as traffic overflying and joining via teardrop entry.
 
Ok I do have some blame to take here. I should have departed at position 6 at the 45 degree offset. The 1 mile separation felt too close for comfort in this instance only because the cirrus was coming behind me "hot" and not at all slowing and 200-300 feet aboveI would have flown runway heading until I saw the Cirrus pass.

Remember terms like SA (situational awareness) ADM (Aeronautical Decision Making), Risk Management, 3 P model (Perceive, process perform)?

If you don’t perceive the risk, you can’t process or perform.

Basically 8 nm meant the Cirrus would get there is in ~3 minutes and your C150 at Vy with the G loading for 2 turns to downwind took 2 minutes.

Perceive, process, perform.
 
If you need a diagram for situational awareness and basic see and avoid collision avoidance……
 
My on course heading was 240. That's why I thought I'd depart via left downwind. there were no calls of traffic when I made the calls. I only heard him call once I turned crosswind.
If I had stayed in the crosswind at our separation I think that would have posed more danger, at least that's what I thought. I turned downwind basically to go away from him.

Thus was definitely a good learning experience and I certainly do think I could have done better.
Given what has been said, I might have done what you did. Since the arriving Cirrus was coming from the east, I think going straight out on 050 or turning left 45 degrees would have an increased likelihood of conflict. Sure continuing crosswind would work, but you weren’t wrong in thinking your separation would be good for any non-idiot pilot trying not to stay hot in the pattern with traffic.

I have gotten spooked when I’ve been on final on two recent occasions where another a/c called on final. While I was clearly #1 on those incidents, that following target did not indicate that I was in sight while keeping up his speed. This had me looking at my ADSB; usually my scale on the EFB is comparatively large such that the following a/c looks like he is touching my tail. Expanding the scale gives better perspective but not something you want to do on final where you should flying the plane and your eyes should be on your altitude and landing spot while looking for other conflicting traffic in front of you. One of those was a Cirrus pilot converging while being issued repeated advisories by tower that I was in front. By the way, I was doing 90kts until short final.
 
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The OPs departure calls/turns do not make sense for a westerly departure.
Sure they do. Downwind heading is 23. Exiting pattern with 45 degree turn from downwind puts him on course at 275, without having to wander a few miles north to clear the pattern.

45 degree turnout from downwind midfield was taught as a preferred departure method back when I got my PPL 30+ years ago.
 
Remember terms like SA (situational awareness) ADM (Aeronautical Decision Making), Risk Management, 3 P model (Perceive, process perform)?

If you don’t perceive the risk, you can’t process or perform.

Basically 8 nm meant the Cirrus would get there is in ~3 minutes and your C150 at Vy with the G loading for 2 turns to downwind took 2 minutes.

Perceive, process, perform.
Well noted. Like I said above, had I heard him earlier this would not have been an issue at all. Nevertheless, I'll count this as a learning experience.
P.S. I have stayed on the ground and chosen the car as means of travel instead of my little 150 :p on more ocassions than I can count.
 
So I take off in my c150 on rwy 5 and announced I'd be doing a left downwind departure to the west. a cirrus calls 8 miles out to the east and says he'll be entering the left downwind for rwy 5. I turn crosswind and he reports 3 miles out. as I turn downwind he calls "I'm entering downwind for rwy 5 coming in hot". I call and ask if he has me in sight. he says no and I hope I don't run into you...are you in your little 150? I am showing him 300 ft above and about a mile behind me. I felt it was too close for comfort so I descended another 200 ft to stay below him (now only 500 ft agl in the pattern) until I saw him turn base on adsb before I climbed to 4500 and exit the area.

not cool me thinks.

My critique, I have very little to criticize for either pilot here. I thought both did a pretty good job. Short version "communicate a bit better".
The criticism...

The Cirrus, ...coming in Hot(Fast) isn't cool but if descending and misjudged the descent it might be hard to slow down, and if I am not seeing any conflict I would probably continue...
... the "hope I don't run into you" comment was uncalled for, if I showed the other airplane a mile ahead of me and 300 feet below I would be looking and slowing down (perhaps not a easy option) and perhaps stayed a bit wide, on the downwind. I would expect a 150 to be pretty close into the pattern, but also might exit on the 45 (not something I normally do, but I watch pilots do it) and I would have been planning a slightly wider pattern anyway in the Cirrus especially if I was still a bit fast.
... He could have advised what he was doing to avoid, but if he saw you on ADS-B and knew you were ahead and below, he may have felt he was going to get slowed down and stay above you or to the side well enough.


The op ... Not much to criticize other than don't get upset about it, We are naturally problem solvers, you got to make some decisions to ensure the safety of both aircraft. Posting here is great in that reviewing it is how we get better. Most everyone is doing the best the can. Few are trying to be As-----es about it. And once in a while we are the As-----le, even if we don't mean to be.
... Once you realized he went 5 miles are just a couple minutes, and he was 3 miles as you were about 1/2 mile from the downwind, and you didn't see him yet. Try to deconflict hear might have helped while you still have a chance to see him. "Cirrus, I will precede north bound on the Cross wind until I have you in site", This way you he would be in as blind of a spot and would have let him come inside of you "
... Probably should have advised the Cirrus of your "evasive" maneuver so he could anticipate this. I have many times seen pilots do evasive maneuvers for aircraft they can't see, just to Maneuver right into the path of the other traffic.
He could have figured you were departing and would continue climbing so he might have descended to come in underneath you.


The Kudos....

The Cirrus ... He did exactly what he said he was doing and informed you of his situation and intentions. "entering down" I would assume this means entering downwind probably something close to a straight in. The 8 miles out even at 180kts this would be a 2+minute warning. If you think that isn't enough just stop here and wait 2 minutes before continuing reading.
... He responded to your crosswind call and acknowledged he knew you were there, even if he was a bit snarky about it.

The OP ... can be forgiven for thinking 8 miles out was enough for you to turning crosswind before seeing or identifying where he was, And you recognized this error promptly. At probably a more typical 120kts that's four minutes out. As a reference I figure I can do a pattern circuit about every 6 minutes.
... you also were making radio calls and acknowledging you heard and were looking for the other traffic.
... you identified the potential threat of him coming up behind you and performed a reasonable modification to your exit. I would have looked at the ADS-B track to see if a 45 degree exit would have also got me out of his way. But is also a good possibility that might have put you right on his flight patch. Again communication here would have helped.

Of course this I all Monday Morning Quarterbacking.
Over all, Handled well is my opinion.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
When making traffic calls, why don't we inform of time to destination e.g. Comanche 1234A, 8 miles west of airport, 3 minutes, entering left downwind runway XX or something along those lines? Leaves the guesswork out if someone announces as Cessna 1234A. A Cessna can be very slow if it's a 150 or very fast if it's a 210.
 
Ahmad,
The Cirrus was wrong, you were in the pattern before him and so the Cirrus should have given you right of way.
There is no regulation that gives an aircraft the ROW by virtue of "being in the pattern".

The regulation that applies here is the "overtaking" by the Cirrus, which does give the C150 the ROW.
 
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There is no regulation that gives an aircraft the ROW by virtue of "being in the pattern".

The regulation that applies here is the "overtaking" by the Cirrus, which does give the C150 the ROW.
Yes, the regulation does apply here, but not the paragraphs you quote. The Cessna and the Cirrus were converging aircraft at approximately the same altitude with the Cirrus to the right of the Cessna. The Cessna was required to give way to the Cirrus.


91.113 (d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging at approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so), the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way.

(b) General…..When a rule of this section gives another aircraft the right-of-way, the pilot shall give way to that aircraft and may not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless well clear.
 
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Yes, the regulation does apply here. The cirrus was a converging aircraft from the right before the Cessna turned in front of him on the downwind.

91.113 (d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging at approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so), the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way.

Not in the regulations but in the official FAA Flying Handbook (https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/f...als/aviation/airplane_handbook/09_afh_ch8.pdf)

"In any case, the pilot should adjust the airspeed, when necessary, so that it is compatible with the airspeed of other aircraft in the traffic pattern."

The Cirrus pilot appears to not have practiced this.

Also from the same document

"The pilot should enter the traffic pattern at a point well clear of any other observed aircraft."

The Cirrus pilot appears to not have practiced this either.
 
Not in the regulations but in the official FAA Flying Handbook (https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/f...als/aviation/airplane_handbook/09_afh_ch8.pdf)

"In any case, the pilot should adjust the airspeed, when necessary, so that it is compatible with the airspeed of other aircraft in the traffic pattern."

The Cirrus pilot appears to not have practiced this.

Also from the same document

"The pilot should enter the traffic pattern at a point well clear of any other observed aircraft."

The Cirrus pilot appears to not have practiced this either.
As 4RNB points out - The Cessna wasn’t in the traffic pattern, he was departing the airport to the west on a downwind departure where he wasn’t supposed to be.

Downwind leg of the traffic pattern is for arrival and aircraft remaining in the pattern for a landing. Even if the pilot was planning to parallel downwind and then turning west, his departure is not a recommended FAA departure procedure at position #5. Position 5 is for aircraft remaining in the traffic pattern. The proper procedures would have been a turn to 005 or continue 050 until clear the traffic pattern.

#5 - If remaining in the traffic pattern, commence turn to crosswind leg beyond the departure end of the runway within 300 feet of pattern altitude.

#6 - If departing the traffic pattern, continue straight out, or exit with a 45 degree turn (to the left when in a left-hand traffic pattern; to the right when in a right-hand traffic pattern) beyond the departure end of the runway, after reaching pattern altitude.

1707186277819.png





If the Cessna announced closed traffic 05, I would tend to agree with you, but the Cessna still failed to give way to the Cirrus as required in 91.113.
 
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As 4RNB points out - The Cessna wasn’t in the traffic pattern, he was departing the airport to the west on a downwind departure where he wasn’t supposed to be.

Downwind leg of the traffic pattern is for arrival and aircraft remaining in the pattern for a landing. Even if the pilot was planning to parallel downwind and then turning west, his departure is not a recommended FAA departure procedure at position #5. Position 5 is for aircraft remaining in the traffic pattern. The proper procedures would have been a turn to 005 or continue 050 until clear the traffic pattern.

#5 - If remaining in the traffic pattern, commence turn to crosswind leg beyond the departure end of the runway within 300 feet of pattern altitude.

#6 - If departing the traffic pattern, continue straight out, or exit with a 45 degree turn (to the left when in a left-hand traffic pattern; to the right when in a right-hand traffic pattern) beyond the departure end of the runway, after reaching pattern altitude.

View attachment 125106





If the Cessna announced closed traffic 05, I would tend to agree with you, but the Cessna still failed to give way to the Cirrus as required in 91.113.
Thanks for the well written explanation. All good points and humbly noted.
 
Good work. Thanks for sharing.

Still, that other guy sounded like an A hole CIRRUS pilot
But the two labels seem to be synonymous.

I was flying into a controlled field in a C-182. I reported one of the visual reporting points and just a short while, a Cirrus reported the same point. Tower acknowledged and pointed me out as traffic. Cirrus pilot reported the he "had me on the fish finder."

We are both headed for a left downfield, pretty much straight ahead. About 3 flight school planes doing pattern work, but flying right hand pattern. And a Gulftream inbound. I see that the Cirrus is now abeam me, not in trail. Tower asks where he is and he reports that he is on a "wide downwind." Tower instructs him to climb 500 feet. Now, even climbing, he is passing me (I am doing about 90 knots on downwind.

Next call from tower, "Cirrus 123AB make a right 360 you are now number 5 to land. I laughed out loud.
 
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But the two labels seem to be synonymous.
As 4RNB points out - The Cessna wasn’t in the traffic pattern, he was departing the airport to the west on a downwind departure where he wasn’t supposed to be.

Downwind leg of the traffic pattern is for arrival and aircraft remaining in the pattern for a landing. Even if the pilot was planning to parallel downwind and then turning west, his departure is not a recommended FAA departure procedure at position #5. Position 5 is for aircraft remaining in the traffic pattern. The proper procedures would have been a turn to 005 or continue 050 until clear the traffic pattern.

#5 - If remaining in the traffic pattern, commence turn to crosswind leg beyond the departure end of the runway within 300 feet of pattern altitude.

#6 - If departing the traffic pattern, continue straight out, or exit with a 45 degree turn (to the left when in a left-hand traffic pattern; to the right when in a right-hand traffic pattern) beyond the departure end of the runway, after reaching pattern altitude.

View attachment 125106





If the Cessna announced closed traffic 05, I would tend to agree with you, but the Cessna still failed to give way to the Cirrus as required in 91.113.

The other side of that is, flying the downwind puts you in a predicable place at a predicable altitude.

The handbook you cite is RECOMMENDED, it in not mandatory.

They are also big on the fly over the airport then turn back to join the 45. They recommend doing that at 1500 AGL, which is the altitude they recommend for turbine aircraft. HMMMMM.
 
Instead of the crossover at (or above) turbine altitude and a teardrop to the 45, why not just enter on a crosswind at pattern altitude, at downwind speed?
 
So half of you are saying that someone on crosswind has to yield to someone entering on a 45? What world did I slip into? Maybe I forgot how to fly.
 
So half of you are saying that someone on crosswind has to yield to someone entering on a 45? What world did I slip into? Maybe I forgot how to fly.

The argument is that he wasn't really on crosswind but was departing and hence shouldn't have departed the way he did and that's why he should have to yield as per the converging aircraft regulations. I neither agree nor disagree with that argument. At towered airports, I've been instructed to depart exactly the way OP departed so there's that.
 
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