Combination A&P Certificate / Pilot License?

overdrive148

overdrive148

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overdrive148
Hey guys. Hearing more and more about people getting both their PPL+ and A&P certs to be able to either:

1) Work on their own aircraft and save money
or
2) Work on aircraft to -afford- to fly them (or use it when pilot jobs aren't available).

I was wondering if any of you have had A&P experience and how long it took you or cost you to get it. I'm hearing anywhere from 6k at community colleges to 30k+ (the latter being from ERAU of course) and 2 to 4 years. I'm considering getting one in time. Airplanes always break down, there's no shortage of work, and I'm sure it'd look really good together with a license to fly the things for either side of the ops/repair side of employment.
 
Airplanes do not always break down. Depending on where you are in the country the demand for A&P hours may indeed make it so you "don't always have work."

There's no way to slice this to do it in less than 30 months (for practical matters, you can't really do it in less than there years).

That being said, I figure I'd have come out ahead if I sent my wife to A&P school rather than graduate school in education.
 
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Whatever you do, don't be a meathead and spend $50k on an A&P or $20k on a toolbox.


I just turned 30 and almost debt free. Drive old cars, work on / fly old piston planes for fun, and do a lot of jet paperwork for the day job.
 
Sorry, was being a bit tongue-in-cheek with the "always break down" comment. I sell parts for 727 through 777 and there's always a lot of demand for parts moving around and getting sent to shops and installed on planes from what I gather. Even though that C172's aren't airliners, I'm sure there's work for aircraft around the country.
 
Money wise, I'm at the point that I could go earn my A&P for my own personal satisfaction. I just can't carve out two-three years of 40 hours a week for the school. I did the three week LSRM-A school, but I have not set up shop to do that work on the weekends yet.

Jim
 
There are very few part-time A&P schools left. Most (including the outrageous $55K program) are full-time. Part 143 IIRC define the minimum number of hours as well as the 3 written exams, oral & practical.

I know one of the local A&P schools in Colorado will be closing in August after the last of the students have finished. It belongs to the public school system as one of many in the Vocational track, hence it's about 1/3rd the cost of the "professional" school. The new director of the Vocational track has decided that the A&P program is a black-hole of expenses and nothing can change his mind. I had planned to start the Airframe in January, aint gonna happen and I refuse to spend that kind of $$$ at the "professional" school.

The other option is to work at a local shop under the supervision of an A&P, accrue the hours, take the exams.
 
Herman vanOoijen said:
This is a one year program [not part time]:
http://www.mvcc.edu/stem-center/air...ame-powerplant-technology-program-information

It is located at an airport where one could get a PPL
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Funny you should mention MVCC. I actually sold them a couple parts for their A&P Program and talked with Walt to do so. I have the PPL already actually, I'm just looking for ways to make more of the aviation industry.

On my list is an instrument rating, commercial rating, multi-engine, glider, aerobatic, and CFI. CFI and A&P are a tie... Both are great utility but there's a lot of training between the two. The ratings and additional aircraft types are for my own personal interest, I think there's something to be gained from going through all of that different training. At the very least i'm looking at glider for the great cost/hour. Instrument/Commercial to fly for hire. Multi-engine for that as well. Etc etc :p what isn't on a pilot's list that isn't more flying?
 
Unless you can afford to do it just for the hell of it or want to make aircraft maintenance your job it likely isn't worth getting your A&P.

As an owner unless you are able to get and keep current an IA you will still be sending your plane off once a year for an inspection too...
 
I know two airline pilots who got their A&P early in their flying career. Both leveraged their combination of commercial ticket and A&P into getting their first 135 and corporate job respectively. Neither of them did much wrenching for the respective company but the ability to perform some maintenance in the field made them attractive candidates. So if flying for a living is your long term goal and you have to get 4 years worth of college credits anyway, spending 2 years on an A&P program sounds like a worthwhile endeavor. Just to do your own work, not so much.
 
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Much of the work in small shops is on private airplanes owned by guys who can barely afford them. Wages, therefore, tend to be considerably less than what the same guy with a different industrial ticket could get. I speak from experience here.

Canada's license requires that the holder perform at least six months' maintenance-related work in the previous two years for the license to be current. I don't know if the US has that same rule. In Canada one won't keep the license legal just by maintaining one's own private airplane.

Dan
 
overdrive148 said:
Hey guys. Hearing more and more about people getting both their PPL+ and A&P certs to be able to either:

1) Work on their own aircraft and save money
Click to expand...
I do all my own aircraft work except for the annual condition inspection and the 24 month transponder check.

But I do not have an A&P or anything like that.
 
An A&P license dosent necessarily mean you can work on aircraft. Just means you can sign for it (except for annuals) School won't teach you how to work on airplanes. It's just a license to learn.
You could document everything you do from "the watchful eye" of an A&P and aquire the hours to get signed off to test for A&P. Talk to your local FSDO. It takes alittle longer(30 months) but cheaper. Especially if your doing the work already. But you need to have detailed documentation.
With that said, I went the knucklehead route and went to one of those "money pit" schools. But this was my career choice. Now I want my PPL just for fun!
BTW there are schools out there that are not too expensive. Look into community colleges and some other trade schools. A couple guys got theirs for less than $5000 with books. And that's here in Cali!!!
 
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murphey said:
...The other option is to work at a local shop under the supervision of an A&P, accrue the hours, take the exams.
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A/c mech said:
...You could document everything you do from "the watchful eye" of an A&P and aquire the hours to get signed off to test for A&P. Talk to your local FSDO. It takes alittle longer(30 months) but cheaper. Especially if your doing the work already. But you need to have detailed documentation.
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I would like to point out a quirk in the rules on this. If you do like I did and take the three week (120 hour) LSRM-A course & have the FAA issue you an LSRM-A rating you can document your own time spent working on E-LSA & S-LSA airplanes. In effect, you apprentice under yourself! This is a great way to build the required HOURS/MONTHS of documented experience, but probably won't do too much for learning what it takes to pass the actual tests.

I did the LSRM-A course at Blue Ridge Community College. Big thumbs up to those guys!
http://community.brcc.edu/aviation/index.php/light-sport/

Jim
 
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I retired last year from being a County civil engineer with the goal of getting my CFII. Soon after, I realized the best way for me to own an airplane is as an A&P. So I enrolled in George T Baker Aviation school in Miami. This has got to be one of the best deals in the country. Good instructors, incredible facilities, and CHEAP. The entire program is about 2300 contact hours. Tuition around $3/hour for in-state students. Financial aid available (Pell is best although I do not qualify for any aid due to my BSCE) Standard schedule is 5 hours per day so about two years but you can add another 2.5 hours easily enough and cut it to 18 months. If you are an animal you can add another 5 on top of that and finish in one year. Right now, I am going between 5 and 7.5. Should be able to test for airframe in September.

http://www.bakeraviation.edu/
 
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The only people I know who made reasonable money in GA are all mechanics who own reasonably sized shops. Yes, if your perspective is to work as a mechanic for others, your income potential is going to be limited, just like the income potential of someone working in a car-repair shop rather than owning it.
 
overdrive148 said:
Hey guys. Hearing more and more about people getting both their PPL+ and A&P certs to be able to either:

1) Work on their own aircraft and save money
or
2) Work on aircraft to -afford- to fly them (or use it when pilot jobs aren't available).

I was wondering if any of you have had A&P experience and how long it took you or cost you to get it. I'm hearing anywhere from 6k at community colleges to 30k+ (the latter being from ERAU of course) and 2 to 4 years. I'm considering getting one in time. Airplanes always break down, there's no shortage of work, and I'm sure it'd look really good together with a license to fly the things for either side of the ops/repair side of employment.
Click to expand...

Think about how many times you could pay an A&P to work on your aircraft to cover what it will cost to gain your A&P.

I am an A&P with inspection authorization, I would not be able to own and fly my aircraft if I didn't work on other pilots aircraft. But to get your A&P just to own, does not make sense money wise.
 
Tom-D said:
But to get your A&P just to own, does not make sense money wise.
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In my case, it does make sense even money-wise. But not everything is about money. I have done mechanical work since I was 10 years old. Restored cars, built cars, worked as a boat mechanic, auto mechanic, heavy equipment mechanic and operator. Got my BSCE at age 44 since I found I had drifted into engineering construction and figured "might as well". Will get my A&P at 61. I do not want to own something I can not work on myself.
 
There is something else you could do. You work hand in hand with any A&P for no less than 18 months for both your A and your P, and that A&P can recommend you to the FAA to take your test.

That's how all the military guys get it. We worked on aircraft for x number of years and then were able to go take the test with the FAA's blessing. I'm an A&P and am working on my PP now. :) I love wrenching on planes, been doing it for about 15 years.
 
Bergitor said:
There is something else you could do. You work hand in hand with any A&P for no less than 18 months for both your A and your P, and that A&P can recommend you to the FAA to take your test.

That's how all the military guys get it. We worked on aircraft for x number of years and then were able to go take the test with the FAA's blessing. I'm an A&P and am working on my PP now. :) I love wrenching on planes, been doing it for about 15 years.
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30 months for the A&P, 18 for either. I would rather see someone go to school for a rounded education that includes theory and then basically apprentice for an A&P in the field. Lots of fellows work for someone while going to school and get the best of both worlds.
 
alfadog said:
30 months for the A&P, 18 for either. I would rather see someone go to school for a rounded education that includes theory and then basically apprentice for an A&P in the field. Lots of fellows work for someone while going to school and get the best of both worlds.
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Thats 30 months of full time 8 hour days. round about 4800 hours of apprentice time, and you have to show that you have done half of the items listed in the appendix for part 147.
 
VanDy said:
Thats 30 months of full time 8 hour days. round about 4800 hours of apprentice time, and you have to show that you have done half of the items listed in the appendix for part 147.
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It is not a bad system if it is done honestly. A lot of guys get the A&P to sign them off then take a 7 - 10 day cram course to learn what they need to learn to pass the test.
 
alfadog said:
It is not a bad system if it is done honestly. A lot of guys get the A&P to sign them off then take a 7 - 10 day cram course to learn what they need to learn to pass the test.
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It's definitely not a bad program at all, we have a guy woroking towards his A&P at our shop right now, I just wanted to make sure that you were aware it really measured in hours and that going to the airport once a week for 30 months doesn't quite cut it.
 
VanDy said:
Thats 30 months of full time 8 hour days. round about 4800 hours of apprentice time, and you have to show that you have done half of the items listed in the appendix for part 147.
Click to expand...

More like 3,000 hours. The FAA realizes that even full time A&P mechanics don't get 100% billable time.

Jim
 
The combination of the two licenses isn't going to open up a world of opportunity for you like you imagine. As for saving money by working on your own airplane - just buy the plane, get to know it and find an old A&P who you can garner a relationship with. Eventually he'll trust you to do most, if not all, of the work and will take care of your annual inspections for you.

The fact is that most old A&P's like me have no interest in crawling all over your aircraft, opening panels, removing seats and cowls. There's no reason a modestly confident owner can't do all that and save himself a bunch of cash.
 
murphey said:
There are very few part-time A&P schools left. Most (including the outrageous $55K program) are full-time. Part 143 IIRC define the minimum number of hours as well as the 3 written exams, oral & practical.

I know one of the local A&P schools in Colorado will be closing in August after the last of the students have finished. It belongs to the public school system as one of many in the Vocational track, hence it's about 1/3rd the cost of the "professional" school. The new director of the Vocational track has decided that the A&P program is a black-hole of expenses and nothing can change his mind. I had planned to start the Airframe in January, aint gonna happen and I refuse to spend that kind of $$$ at the "professional" school.

The other option is to work at a local shop under the supervision of an A&P, accrue the hours, take the exams.
Click to expand...


The loss of Emily Griffith as an A&P school here is one of the more depressing events I've witnessed as schools have come and gone in the breeze. Was a once in a lifetime thing around here.

A great many people got their A&P and avionics training there. And because it was affordable and not catering to the "I have free student loan money from Uncle Sam" crowd, it helped the community for more than just aviation too. Many people went there because it was affordable and that place became their stepping stone to good technical jobs.

One of my buddies credits the place for his career in cellular plant work, after doing the avionics track there many many moons ago.
 
Kiddo's Driver said:
More like 3,000 hours. The FAA realizes that even full time A&P mechanics don't get 100% billable time.

Jim
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faa order 8900.1

E. Part-Time Practical Experience. During the evaluation of part-time practical aviation maintenance experience, the applicant must document an equivalent of 18 months for each rating individually, or 30 months of experience for both ratings. This is based on a standard work-week that has 8 hours per day for 5 days per week, or a 40 hour work-week, or a total of approximately 160 hours per month. The time is cumulative, but the days, weeks, and months are not required to be consecutive. The practical experience must be documented.
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that works out to 4,800 hours.
 
Like others, I do 90% of the wrenching on my plane - oil/tires/plugs/and lots of other loose/broken stuff. I have a good working relationship with my API mechanic. Some things I just do quietly. But, lots of things I will run by him before I dive in. The usual answer is, 'let me look at it before you put the cowl back on'
I suspect there are a few dollars added to his labor bill at the annual to cover the odd inspection. Works for both of us.
 
Silvaire said:
The combination of the two licenses isn't going to open up a world of opportunity for you like you imagine. As for saving money by working on your own airplane - just buy the plane, get to know it and find an old A&P who you can garner a relationship with. Eventually he'll trust you to do most, if not all, of the work and will take care of your annual inspections for you.

The fact is that most old A&P's like me have no interest in crawling all over your aircraft, opening panels, removing seats and cowls. There's no reason a modestly confident owner can't do all that and save himself a bunch of cash.
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This,

I think a pilots license is more valuable to the professional mechanic than vice versa.

There is value for the professional pilot, but not a whole lot.

There is some for the owner, but again without an IA you still need to go see someone else every 12 months.
 
Kiddo's Driver said:
Looks like I stand corrected!

Jim
Click to expand...


I wouldn't have know except we have an apprentice at our shop and we called the fsdo to verify.

Also check out 43.9 a3, both apprentice and mechanic go in the logbooks



-VanDy
 
Thanks for the various insights guys.

I was contemplating just a few more years for a valuable skill, but if it's going to be more useful for working on planes instead of maintaining my own, I think I'll pass. I also didn't realize just how much maintenance one could do on their own aircraft that counts as "preventative".
 
overdrive148 said:
Thanks for the various insights guys.

I was contemplating just a few more years for a valuable skill, but if it's going to be more useful for working on planes instead of maintaining my own, I think I'll pass. I also didn't realize just how much maintenance one could do on their own aircraft that counts as "preventative".
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Find a willing mechanic and you can do all of it that isn't "inspection" and assuming you have a type certificated plane that is all you would be doing with your A&P anyway!
 
Dr. O said:
Like others, I do 90% of the wrenching on my plane - oil/tires/plugs/and lots of other loose/broken stuff. I have a good working relationship with my API mechanic. Some things I just do quietly. But, lots of things I will run by him before I dive in. The usual answer is, 'let me look at it before you put the cowl back on'
I suspect there are a few dollars added to his labor bill at the annual to cover the odd inspection. Works for both of us.
Click to expand...
And why wouldn't any one want a second set of eyes looking their work over ? After all, isn't it your sweet cheeks he is protecting ?
 
Unfortunately, my experience with pilot/mechanics is that usually their pilot friends think they're good mechanics and their mechanic friends think they're good pilots. I've known a lot of them over the years and I can count on one hand the number of guys (and a gal) that I thought were both good pilots and good mechanics. Pick one or the other and be good at it.
 
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