Color Blind and Night Flight.

[X3 Skier]

Reading some other threads reminded me of a question I have been thinking about.

Back in the day, I always passed the yarn test since I couldn't read the color book and my Medical had no restriction against night flight. When I got back into the game, no more yarn test so I have the "no night flight, light gun" restriction. Doesn't bother me since I don't plan on flying at night but I am certain I could do the SODA testing to get rid of the restriction if I wanted to do so. Just too lazy, I guess.

I was wondering if a student is color blind and the rule is fly at night to get a PPL,

a) do they still have to do the night flight with the CFI

b) if so, why, since they will be prohibited from flying at night when they get their license. If the answer is "Because the FAA Says So" that's OK by me. But I hope they have explained it as just in case you are in the air after dark (which I suppose would be cause for at least a suspension if caught)

c) any difference for Commercial viz Color Blind?

BTW, I do fly with the same color socks.

Cheers

 

[Henning]

Reading some other threads reminded me of a question I have been thinking about.

Back in the day, I always passed the yarn test since I couldn't read the color book and my Medical had no restriction against night flight. When I got back into the game, no more yarn test so I have the "no night flight, light gun" restriction. Doesn't bother me since I don't plan on flying at night but I am certain I could do the SODA testing to get rid of the restriction if I wanted to do so. Just too lazy, I guess.

I was wondering if a student is color blind and the rule is fly at night to get a PPL,

a) do they still have to do the night flight with the CFI

b) if so, why, since they will be prohibited from flying at night when they get their license. If the answer is "Because the FAA Says So" that's OK by me. But I hope they have explained it as just in case you are in the air after dark (which I suppose would be cause for at least a suspension if caught)

c) any difference for Commercial viz Color Blind?

BTW, I do fly with the same color socks.

Cheers

If you could pass the yarn test you ought to be able to pass the Farnsworth Lantern test.

 

[X3 Skier]

Hard To find one these days.

Cheers

 

[Henning]

Hard To find one these days.

Cheers

There is a modified rig optometrists use. 2 years ago my AME finally sent me across the road to the optometrist after a decade of doing Ichi Hara incorrectly (you need 5000*K 'daylight' and a new book for any level of accuracy) and told me "What he says goes for life", I passed all 5 tests he gave me including a properly administered Ichi so now my AME just skips that part.

 

[poadeleted21]

Reading some other threads reminded me of a question I have been thinking about.

Back in the day, I always passed the yarn test since I couldn't read the color book and my Medical had no restriction against night flight. When I got back into the game, no more yarn test so I have the "no night flight, light gun" restriction. Doesn't bother me since I don't plan on flying at night but I am certain I could do the SODA testing to get rid of the restriction if I wanted to do so. Just too lazy, I guess.

I was wondering if a student is color blind and the rule is fly at night to get a PPL,

a) do they still have to do the night flight with the CFI

b) if so, why, since they will be prohibited from flying at night when they get their license. If the answer is "Because the FAA Says So" that's OK by me. But I hope they have explained it as just in case you are in the air after dark (which I suppose would be cause for at least a suspension if caught)

c) any difference for Commercial viz Color Blind?

BTW, I do fly with the same color socks.

Cheers

To my knowledge

A) No, not even a person who isn't color blind doesn't have to, they'll be restricted to day time operations though.
B) See A.
C) Not sure.

 

[poadeleted20]

I was wondering if a student is color blind and the rule is fly at night to get a PPL,

a) do they still have to do the night flight with the CFI

Yes. The only exception to the night requirement is pilots in Alaska during the summer, and then they have 12 months to get it done. See 14 CFR 61.110 for details.

b) if so, why, since they will be prohibited from flying at night when they get their license. If the answer is "Because the FAA Says So" that's OK by me. But I hope they have explained it as just in case you are in the air after dark (which I suppose would be cause for at least a suspension if caught)

I've never pursued that question, but I suspect it has to do with ICAO standardization.

c) any difference for Commercial viz Color Blind?

Sort of.

Applicants for a first‑ or second‑ class medical certificate are required to take and pass an Operational Color Vision Test (OCVT) and a color vision Medical Flight Test (MFT). Applicants for a third class medical certificate need only to take and pass the OCVT.

For details on what that entails, see here. However, there's nothing that says you can't get a CP or even ATP with only a Third Class medical -- you just can't exercise the higher privileges until you do the MFT and obtain a Second/First Class medical.

 

[poadeleted20]

To my knowledge

A) No, not even a person who isn't color blind doesn't have to, they'll be restricted to day time operations though.
B) See A.
C) Not sure.

You should re-read 14 CFR 61.110 and FAA Order 8900.1 (relevent portion linked above), which say otherwise.

 

[Henning]

I've never pursued that question, but I suspect it has to do with ICAO standardization.

I doubt that one since there are other ICAO countries where 'Night' is an additional rating.

 

[bbchien]

The real reason is because the FAA says so. We could so easily design the system to not be color dependent, but we don't. When the Master caution light is blinking, it gets your attention not so much because it is amber, but because it flashes.

The left wingtip light, doesn't have to be red. It could be white and flash very very quickly. The right (green) could just as well flash slowly. etc, etc, etc. PAPI is not the only tool, etc.

Colorblindness is not an obstacle to the commercial certificate:

61.129.4 B3(iv): for airplane multiengine rating....
(iv) One 2-hour cross country flight in a multiengine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(doesn't say "solo". Neither does it for the 10 nightime TOL's)

****
The comparable item for singles is:
61.129 A3(iv)
(iv) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(doesn't say "solo")

 

[X3 Skier]

The real reason is because the FAA says so. We could so easily design the system to not be color dependent, but we don't. When the Master caution light is blinking, it gets your attention not so much because it is amber, but because it flashes.

The left wingtip light, doesn't have to be red. It could be white and flash very very quickly. The right (green) could just as well flash slowly. etc, etc, etc. PAPI is not the only tool, etc.

Colorblindness is not an obstacle to the commercial certificate:

61.129.4 B3(iv): for airplane multiengine rating....
(iv) One 2-hour cross country flight in a multiengine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(doesn't say "solo". Neither does it for the 10 nightime TOL's)

****
The comparable item for singles is:
61.129 A3(iv)
(iv) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(doesn't say "solo")

Thanks. Another mystery solved. :wink2:

Cheers

 

[ja_user]

Wouldn't commercial SEl be difficult? As you have to have 5 hours solo vfr (can't do that legit since you have a restriction on your medical), or you could log it with and instructor sitting in the right seat, as long as they sign off that you were acting PIC (which you can't do, do to the limitation on your medical)..

So how do you get the aeronatical experience satisfied for 61.129 if you have a night restricted medical?

 

[bbchien]

Wouldn't commercial SEl be difficult? As you have to have 5 hours solo vfr (can't do that legit since you have a restriction on your medical), or you could log it with and instructor sitting in the right seat, as long as they sign off that you were acting PIC (which you can't do, do to the limitation on your medical)..

So how do you get the aeronatical experience satisfied for 61.129 if you have a night restricted medical?

None of that for the SEL states that any of the night work has to be solo.....

 

[poadeleted20]

Wouldn't commercial SEl be difficult? As you have to have 5 hours solo vfr (can't do that legit since you have a restriction on your medical), or you could log it with and instructor sitting in the right seat, as long as they sign off that you were acting PIC (which you can't do, do to the limitation on your medical)..

So how do you get the aeronatical experience satisfied for 61.129 if you have a night restricted medical?

You do it while "performing the duties of pilot in command ... with an authorized instructor on board," as it says in that section.

 

[ja_user]

You do it while "performing the duties of pilot in command ... with an authorized instructor on board," as it says in that section.

So you are performing duties as PIC (with instructor signoff), without acting PIC? On a medical that doesn't allow you to act PIC on that flight?


Just asking, becuase it seems primed for a DPE to question it...

 

[ja_user]

None of that for the SEL states that any of the night work has to be solo.....

Well it says Solo or "or ...... flight time performing the duties of pilot in command "




61.129a
(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under Sec. 61.127(b)(1) that include--]
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and (ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.



So would an instructor sign off that you were "performing duties of Pilot in Command" on a "Flight Training recieved" flight, or on a flight that their medical didn't allow them to act as PIC?

 

[poadeleted20]

So you are performing duties as PIC (with instructor signoff), without acting PIC? On a medical that doesn't allow you to act PIC on that flight?

Yup. Although you are performing the duties of PIC, not as the PIC -- fine semantic difference there.

Just asking, becuase it seems primed for a DPE to question it...

As long as it's properly logged, there shouldn't be an examiner in the USA who questions it.

 

[ja_user]

Yup. Although you are performing the duties of PIC, not as the PIC -- fine semantic difference there.

As long as it's properly logged, there shouldn't be an examiner in the USA who questions it.

Interesting...

 

[bbchien]

Interesting...

Acting as PIC, being the sole manipulator of the controls, in an aircraft for which you are rated, is different from being the LEGAL PIC.