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jcatay

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I'm leaving for college in 8 months. My flight instructor for the last 4 months just quit and I'm now looking for a new one. He did not start ground school with me either, however I'm signed up in February for one at a Jr college. I have 32 logged hours.

Does it seem like I should be able to get my license in time?
 
Without knowing the particulars or how well you are learning between ground and flight training, I doubt anyone could answer your question. One thing I would suggest is don't place constraints on where you should be at a given time.

I had a student who was convinced he should have solo'd at 10-12 hours. I suggested he let go and just worry about the quality of his flights rather than where he should be. He solo'd at 22 hours and was dang near perfect in his performance. That's what counts.

Everyone learns at a different pace at different material to be learned. If you're going to be attending school full-time, it's just that much more difficult. Put the effort you can into ground instruction, on your own as well as with an instructor. Make good use of the flight time you can; of course, with a dedicated instructor who gives his full attention to you during the scheduled time slot.

With 32 hours over four months, it sounds like your training is about once a week. That usually isn't enough to stay consistent since so much time passing between lessons usually causes a loss of what was previously learned. If you can stay consistent with at least twice a week, you'll accomplish much more and ultimately pay less for your training. Three times a week is ideal if you can put the time into ground instruction as well. That's pretty difficult for one working or otherwise attending school full-time.

You'll have to say where you're attending and what your major is. Some folks may be able to recommend a good flight school and/or instructor in that area.

Best of luck to you on completing the ticket.
 
32/4=8 hours per month -- pretty good training rate. Get some sleep, Kenny, and come back tomorrow.:smilewinkgrin:
You don't have to deal with towers much, do ya? :)

At PDK, they scheduled three hour slots with the hope of having a solid 1.0 to 1.5 once outside of the Class Bravo shelf. We were surrounded by five Class Deltas to get past on the way out except to the north. Then, we'd sometimes have to battle with the bizjets heading in.

Here, we schedule in 2.5 hour slots. At Austin, it's just busy enough we spend at least twenty minutes getting off the ground and taxing back in. Sometimes, it's worse. The average logged time is 1.7 hours with about 1.4 in flight training. Today's student was 1.8 with nearly .5 on the ground getting stuck behind two airliners and a King Air on departure. Taxiing in on return took no time at all.

So, I tend to think of an average lesson around 1.8 hours. Hence, my once a week estimation. BUT, if he's out of one those quiet little airports with little going on, it might actually be just an hour logged and a very fulfilling lesson. I'm not sure what that's like. I've not experienced it since I did instrument training at KGVL.
 
You don't have to deal with towers much, do ya? :)

At PDK, they scheduled three hour slots with the hope of having a solid 1.0 to 1.5 once outside of the Class Bravo shelf. We were surrounded by five Class Deltas to get past on the way out except to the north. Then, we'd sometimes have to battle with the bizjets heading in.

Here, we schedule in 2.5 hour slots. At Austin, it's just busy enough we spend at least twenty minutes getting off the ground and taxing back in. Sometimes, it's worse. The average logged time is 1.7 hours with about 1.4 in flight training. Today's student was 1.8 with nearly .5 on the ground getting stuck behind two airliners and a King Air on departure. Taxiing in on return took no time at all.

So, I tend to think of an average lesson around 1.8 hours. Hence, my once a week estimation. BUT, if he's out of one those quiet little airports with little going on, it might actually be just an hour logged and a very fulfilling lesson. I'm not sure what that's like. I've not experienced it since I did instrument training at KGVL.

Ken, do you think that the delays will become materially better when the work on 17L/35R is complete? Are they allowing departures from 17L?
 
I'm leaving for college in 8 months. My flight instructor for the last 4 months just quit and I'm now looking for a new one. He did not start ground school with me either, however I'm signed up in February for one at a Jr college. I have 32 logged hours.

Does it seem like I should be able to get my license in time?

Sure. For one data point, I finished in 42.6 hours over the course of 3 months. That's less than "normal" and I attribute that solely to soaking up as much knowledge from as many sources *on the ground* as possible. There weren't any big surprises once I hopped in the airplane, I already knew what to expect.

Any good CFI should be able to work with you to achieve your goals in the time frame you set, and 8 months is plenty to get your private even from 0 hours, *IF* you have the time and money to consistently fly 2-3 times per week. Good CFI's should also give you an honest evaluation of how your progress is going and tell you whether they think you'll achieve your goal.

Good luck, and keep us posted! :yes:
 
Ken, do you think that the delays will become materially better when the work on 17L/35R is complete? Are they allowing departures from 17L?
All 9,000 feet of 17L/35R is open and landing on 35R is now active as of two weeks ago. They are doing some work on Bravo at Golf by the green circle but that should be short-lived. I understand work on the approach end of 17L will begin in March.

While it's nicer to have the landings on 35R, we now share it with the airliners so it has somewhat slowed down the GA departures. Before, all the piston traffic used 35R for departures along with most of the bizjets. Now, about half the airliners are coming to "our side."
 
Any good CFI should be able to work with you to achieve your goals in the time frame you set, and 8 months is plenty to get your private even from 0 hours, *IF* you have the time and money and weather to consistently fly 2-3 times per week.
Good luck, and keep us posted! :yes:
Fixed that for you, Kent. I don't know where the OP is located, but it's getting into that time of the year when it can be more difficult to fly as often as we'd like. However, It's certainly within the realm of possibility! And please do keep us posted!
 
I'm leaving for college in 8 months. My flight instructor for the last 4 months just quit and I'm now looking for a new one. He did not start ground school with me either, however I'm signed up in February for one at a Jr college. I have 32 logged hours.

Does it seem like I should be able to get my license in time?

Find a CFI that will let you do a self study for ground. Any CFI that is worth paying for understands that ground school is a waste anyways, and any CFI that doesn't realize that ground school is a waste is not worth paying for.

That's step 1.

Step 2 is to fly the hell outta that plane with a CFI, and you can probably beat the Feb. deadline!
 
Find a CFI that will let you do a self study for ground. Any CFI that is worth paying for understands that ground school is a waste anyways, and any CFI that doesn't realize that ground school is a waste is not worth paying for.
Guess I'm a waste as an instructor, because I believe strongly (and there is research to prove) than a structured school program usually produces better results. The organization, the impetus of regular classes, and the two-way communication with an instructor all serve to improve student performance. Sure, some folks can do it on their own with a good self-study system, but most do better with a live instructor involved in the process.
 
Nick, that really depends on the student. I know some people for whom a self-study program wouldn't work at all, and they need an instructor for ground school. However, I am not one of those people - I prefer a self-study on the ground (and it's worked well for me). During fight training, my instructor and I will talk about question I have, and he answers them. That's been the system that's worked for me.

Every student is different, and as such making a broad generalization as to the best way to learn may be correct for a number of students, but will never be for all. What's most important is that the student in question find a means of learning that works for him/her.

To the original question, I think you have enough time, just remember to work at it and not slack off. I've gone full-bore at both my ratings (and am going full bore at my upcoming ratings) and that's how I've managed to get them done pretty quickly. When I was doing my instrument rating, if I wasn't flying after work or on weekends I was studying, with few exceptions. Got it done in just about 4 months, including several 1-2 week breaks due to business travel, conflicts in availability of my instructor, OshKosh, etc.

Good luck!
 
Guess I'm a waste as an instructor, because I believe strongly (and there is research to prove) than a structured school program usually produces better results. The organization, the impetus of regular classes, and the two-way communication with an instructor all serve to improve student performance. Sure, some folks can do it on their own with a good self-study system, but most do better with a live instructor involved in the process.
Every student is different. You have to tailor your training to the student's actual learning style, just as you have to fly a rectangular pattern based on what the wind is actually doing to your aircraft. (Guess what I practiced teaching yesterday? :) ) Some folks need a structured class environment. Some do better with self-study through a CBT course. Others do best when you hand them the book and say "knock yourself out".

For the OP, I'd say you should be able to get it done easily, weather permitting. I got my ticket in 59 hours of training over 6 months. The best thing to do is keep after it regularly.
 
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While I'm quite fine with self-study, I come across far too many who are not dedicated enough to study when away from me or the airplane.

Based on my early experience as a CFI back in Atlanta, I set a personal minimum as a CFI with regard to ground school. No student shall ever solo without first having a sound knowledge of aerodynamics, aircraft systems and instrumentation as well as the ability to troubleshoot problems and clearly explain what is happening when a problem is encountered. If you can't do that, you're not gonna solo on my ticket.

So, if that requires substantial ground time to make that happen, so be it. I establish that rule up front and I don't have a single fellow instructor at my school nor a boss who disagrees. I doubt any CFI on this board would disagree.

Likewise, I won't be putting the student through a LOT of ground school if their flight skills aren't where they need to be as well. I'll try to keep things matched and our TCO is laid out pretty well to make that happen. But, it has standards to be met and what I've outlined above falls well within that. That knowledge isn't mandatory by the TCO but it is with me and shall remain so.
 
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I think the one good thing about a classroom situation is not that it is structured, because self-study can be too, but that there is interaction between the students. I did self-study all the way through ATP and I realized later that I had done a lot of learning in a vacuum because I didn't interact with other pilots that much. I had a lot of catching up to do on the "culture" of aviation or whatever you want to call it. That isn't so much an issue if you are able to interact with other pilots through a message board like this, but I learned back in the dark ages before Gore invented the internet...
 
Fixed that for you, Kent. I don't know where the OP is located, but it's getting into that time of the year when it can be more difficult to fly as often as we'd like. However, It's certainly within the realm of possibility! And please do keep us posted!

True - But my 3 months was from mid-Feb through mid-May, a generally ****ty time of year (and also within the "next 8 months" block the OP has to work with). Maybe I was just lucky, but the first flight I ever had to cancel for weather was my checkride. I had 2.4 hours of actual when I got my private, and apparently it was warm enough for icing not to be a concern.

I'd suggest that if someone schedules *and goes to the airport* 3 times a week, they'll fly at least 2 on average, and if they don't get the 3rd one, they can do some work on the ground. Even a good self-study student can benefit greatly from ground instruction with a good CFI 1-on-1. :yes:
 
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As I said earlier, some students study well on their own. Some do not. I have one student who is so far ahead on his own and knows his stuff cold. I'm really impressed with his emergency procedures. I have another who works so much, he can't get away from that part of his life much outside of so he appreciates the time he gets with me an can block off everyone else. Then again, I have another student who runs a fair-sized company and although it can run without him, he gets called when any issue becomes an engineering issue. Again, his time with me is when he tries to turn off the phone.

Everyone is different. Some can do it, some can't. Perhaps you were one of those who ran your own ground training and did well. That's good. It will come in handy when you work on your IR. There's more than enough dry reading to keep you "busy."
 
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Well then, Ron, it sounds like you are of the opinion that as a CFI, you have access to knowledge that a normal person does not, which means you fit the conceited CFI profile, which means you are kind of a waste of an instructor then.

Remember, this pilot is going to have to fend for himself post PPL, and you've taken a valuable tool away from the potential pilot, and that is the ability to find out "why" for himself.

Congratulations. I'm sure PIC's proud of you.

Wow.

There are, indeed, conceited instructors who think they know everything. I would also say there are also students that are conceited and think they can't learn anything from a good instructor.

A good instructor, and a structured program, as Ron said in his original post, will indeed teach a student how to find the answers for themselves.

And I'm sure PIC, and Ron's students, are proud of him.
 
Ron didn't say anything about having more knowledge, but that one-on-one with an instructor can be beneficial. Heck, I believe that one-on-one even with an interested non-instructor can be beneficial, if they ask you questions that get you to think about things in a way that isn't immediately obvious from the books and other self-study material. And having someone who knows the material, knows where people sometimes think they understand but don't, and can help integrate all that knowledge into a cohesive view can be a godsend.

Yes, experience counts for something, and being able to bring that into the discussion is valuable too. It doesn't mean the instructor knows everything, is never wrong, or is smarter than the student. It means that they can bring a different perspective to it.

As for students believing their instructor without question, I agree that is a problem. It's also a problem if they believe everything they read without question. Remember the recent thread about the Jeppesen Aviation Weather book? The student must exercise critical thinking, and a good instructor is going to foster that.
 
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Every student is different. You have to tailor your training to the student's actual learning style, ... Some do better with self-study through a CBT course. Others do best when you hand them the book and say "knock yourself out".
Unfortunately, it's hard for a book or a CD/DVD to tailor itself to the student, but good instructors do that every day. That's not saying there aren't some, or even many, students who do well with canned training systems, but without feedback and flexibility, you're missing two elements of effective training which education researchers consider critical.
 
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Well then, Ron, it sounds like you are of the opinion that as a CFI, you have access to knowledge that a normal person does not, which means you fit the conceited CFI profile, which means you are kind of a waste of an instructor then.

Funny, I don't get that from Rons posts. He is right in his information a vast majority of the time and admits it when he isn't. In other words, he knows he doesn't know everything and is willing to learn. That is one of the characteristics of a good CFI (or any pilot for that matter).

As far as CFIs having "access to knowledge that a normal person does not", they do. It's the aeronautical experience contained in his/her brain. Wanting to pass on that hard earned experience to a student doesn't make one conceited.
 
Are you working night shift?

The validity of that claim is flawed anyway, as its not true, but that's not the point. My point is not that Ron is a horrible person, or whatever you're trying to imply, because I don't believe that he is. However he just admitted to being a CFI that is a waste of time, and that he succumbs to the belief that ground school is more effective than self-learning.

I guess my question to Ron then, is this:

A new FAR is passed after a pilot gets his rating. So do you think he needs to have a CFI explain him what this regulation entails, or do you think he can look that up himself?



The truth hurts sometimes.

He didn't say that either. He said, without reference, I'll add, that studies have shown that having a formal ground school produces better results than self-teaching, which is flawed, because pilots have to learn stuff by themselves.


I agree 100%, which is why I think its important to pick an instructor's brain before, during, and after the flight to get as much as you can from him/her. That doesn't mean he needs to be telling you everything you need to know aviationwise.



You're right. The problem is that having an instructor tell them everything they need to know will only lead to blind faith issues later. I've seen it way too many times: The ones that have the bad belief habits are the ones that went through ground school with a single instructor and not self-study.

See - I have experience in this too.
 
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Nick, you seem to be of the belief that the CFI just spouts information at the student, as a lecturer might in front of an introductory class. A good instructor may do a bit of lecturing and some demonstrating, but will also do a lot of interactive things. He (or she :)) will ask questions of the student to get them to explore scenarios or possibilities that they might not do on their own. He will probe the student to determine where the weak points are and provide suggestions about how to fill those in. He will challenge the student to go out on his own to find answers and to look things up. I haven't had Ron as an instructor either, but I strongly suspect that this is the sort of thing he does with his students. There is a large difference between just lecturing and instructing.
 
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Well then, Ron, it sounds like you are of the opinion that as a CFI, you have access to knowledge that a normal person does not, which means you fit the conceited CFI profile, which means you are kind of a waste of an instructor then.

It is Nick's Birthday....He can crrryyy if he wants to :rofl:....Seriously man, look back and read what you've wrote. I hope after doing so you'll be able to apologize for the unnecessary comments.
 
It is Nick's Birthday....He can crrryyy if he wants to :rofl:....Seriously man, look back and read what you've wrote. I hope after doing so you'll be able to apologize for the unnecessary comments.

+1. What's got you today, Nick?
 
T,

To put things simply, yes it is possible to complete flight training for your private in 8 months but there are many factors that will have to take place for that to happen. I believe it would be beneficial to find an instructor, and if its in your budget, who can provide you with flight training at least twice a week. Once would be okay just keep in mind that the more time you put between training, the less you tend to remember.

Another thing that would be great in the mean time is to start reading on your own. Flight training also consists of ground training as you know so grab whatever books your CFI suggested, or we have many we can suggest, and start at the beginning. If you haven't completed your written yet, you can start studying for that too. If you have any questions, we're here to help.
 
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One of the benefits for larger schools that have specific classes is the students get to work together in small groups during training. That is indeed one of the processes outlined in the Aviation Instructor's Handbook.

As far as using ground school to bolster my own ego, gosh... I don't think I've done that. Now, I will tease students. And, if something is not taken I shall back it up with the "word." Today, I handled the ground portion of a Flight Review. Although I have an outline I follow, all along the way, I turn to the respective portion of the FAR/AIM not to back up my word but to let the person know it is not my word but rather the law or standard pointed to in the book they also are looking at.

If I'm wrong and the student calls me on it, so be it. I'm not afraid to admit I'm wrong. If the student heard a different heading or number from ATC than I did, hey, let's call and find out. Yesterday, I was wrong. I told my student he had it right. During the flight review, I brought up recovery from unusual attitudes. I got a little case of "vertical dyslexia" while stating the three steps. He caught it and called me on it. Good! I'm glad he did. I'm not infallible.

What I never do is simply give a student the answer. I'll help them find it, lead them to possible sources or whatever. If they find it, they will better retain it.
 
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I also would like to see the RoC modified to not allow out-of-context quotes from others used in signature lines. I've had that tactic used on me for unknown reasons, and I've seen a lot of Spin Zone crap that makes it into signatures (which are, of course, displayed on the entire site). I don't believe it's within the spirit of this forum. :no:
 
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I have been participating on this board from day one. I have never had any reason to question Ron's advice. Not meant to be a slant on any other PoA member, but I take Ron's advice very seriously when it comes to anything aviation.
 
I think the one good thing about a classroom situation is not that it is structured, because self-study can be too, but that there is interaction between the students. I did self-study all the way through ATP and I realized later that I had done a lot of learning in a vacuum because I didn't interact with other pilots that much. I had a lot of catching up to do on the "culture" of aviation or whatever you want to call it. That isn't so much an issue if you are able to interact with other pilots through a message board like this, but I learned back in the dark ages before Gore invented the internet...

You make a good point Mari. :) I enjoyed taking a ground school class at the local university (I audited the class for $3) and one of the reasons was being able to meet other student pilots. Another thing that I enjoyed was hearing questions from other students in class about things that I hadn't thought about. I did a lot of studying on my own with books and videos, but feel that taking the class enhanced my learning experience.

Tom has been teaching ground school classes at the local university for almost 30 years now. Part of one of the class periods is spent at the airport at a mechanics shop. And now, we offer his students a ride in our airplane at our farm if they want. And, if the class is near his birthday, I send cupcakes to class with him. Added bonus for his students. ;) One of the Yak pilots told me after he found out about that, that my new handle would likely be "Cupcake". :D
 
Well, that's all the reason I would need to refrain from sending cheesecake or pigs in a blanket.

You make a good point Mari. :) I enjoyed taking a ground school class at the local university (I audited the class for $3) and one of the reasons was being able to meet other student pilots. Another thing that I enjoyed was hearing questions from other students in class about things that I hadn't thought about. I did a lot of studying on my own with books and videos, but feel that taking the class enhanced my learning experience.

Tom has been teaching ground school classes at the local university for almost 30 years now. Part of one of the class periods is spent at the airport at a mechanics shop. And now, we offer his students a ride in our airplane at our farm if they want. And, if the class is near his birthday, I send cupcakes to class with him. Added bonus for his students. ;) One of the Yak pilots told me after he found out about that, that my new handle would likely be "Cupcake". :D
 
Folks:

Nick has removed a number of posts which he decided were inappropriate. I ask those of you who quoted those removed posts to also remove your quotations of his posts.

Thanks,
Ron
 
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