College and Aviation

I would say going to a junior college and transferring after 1 or 2 years is better than going to a junior college all 4 years. But then again you don't have to go to a big 4 year school to have fun during your college years.

I know someone mentioned restricted ATP hours. I think choosing to do the degree to get lower ATP required hours would be a poor choice. You can do 500 hours quickly if you look hard enough. Flight instructing may be hard but I know plenty of friends that flew banners, and aerial photography for people like Air Associates and Pictometry, made about as much(if not a little more) than most regional guys our age, and racked up around 1500 hours in a year. They spent a year flying all over the country. Staying in hotels and going out to clubs in different cities every night. They said the would do it all over again in a heartbeat.

The thought of coming out of college looking for a job with $100,000+ debt makes me want to faint. I couldn't even imagine it. A corporate pilot who went to an aviation school today said to me, "Just made my last student loan payment!" He is 44...
 
I'm currently attending the University of North Dakota. They sold me on the restricted ATP and with all the "connections" they have with airlines like ExpressJet's AP3 and Cape Air's gateway with JetBlue. They have a real nice ATC simulator that was donated to them and a Altitude Chamber, along with a fleet of over 100 aircraft. I'm 2 years in and I would NOT recommend North Dakota. How do you like -30 degree temps and low clouds most of the winter? Makes it hard to fly since the aircraft aren't FIKI. And if you don't finish your flying within the semester, you get an F for the ground school class regardless of what your grade was and you have to retake it.

The majority of the students are contracts with Saudi Arabia, Air China, Tokai, Shangdong, EVA Air, and the list goes on. Because they are contracted, they get priority over us American students. I once had to put myself in a hotel over summer break for 2 months while waiting to do a stage check because all the contract students got priority over me. Here, you're just a number. They do a great job at marketing and they act really friendly to get you to enroll, but once you're in, you find out that changes quickly.

There is a list of schools if you're interested in the restricted ATP.
http://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/atp/media/Institutional_Authority_List.pdf

Unfortunately, I am stuck at UND since the majority of the classes I've taken do not transfer elsewhere. Everywhere I would transfer, I would end up as a freshman again, and that would set me back financially.

Also, the way they do their flight training is different than most schools.

After your private pilots license, you would do your instrument, commercial, and multi over the course of 4 semesters. However, even when you pass your instrument or commercial rides, they do not give you that rating or cert until after you completely finish the commercial program and pass your multi commercial. So if you're half way through and want to leave, you would at least need to finish 3 years of college to at least get the ratings that you paid for a year earlier.

Don't let UND sell you on the CRJ simulator either. It isn't a level C or D simulator which is required for the ATP. At least ERAU has a Level D sim..

I would do what everyone else here is saying. When i looked at colleges, everyone else told me to get a different degree and go through an FBO. I didn't take this advice because I thought it would be easier to go through a "aviation college" and get credit for the flying I would have to do anyway. Please take into consideration what other people here say, because now I'm projected to graduate with about $300k in debt and a worthless degree if I ever lose my medical.
 
Slipkid65 said:
I'm gonna go with the consensus here, and recommend getting a more generic degree at a NON aviation oriented college (way more girls!), and pursuing aviation training on the side. Just be careful not to bite off more than you can chew re: your major.

...

Good luck!
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I, too, nominate this post for a sticky! LOTS of pearls of wisdom in there.
 
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ClimbnSink said:
Losers. The full college experience can also be gained by working as a ski bum or rafting bum or anything that has young people, nighttime, and alcohol. If one needs the phony structure of college and a 250K bill to get that experience one is a sad loser.
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$250K??!! :yikes: I don't know where you assume most people go to school, but I wasn't speaking of ivy league for Bachelors degree! I was just commenting that spending a year in the dorms is a part of the college experience that I appreciated. Some CC's/Juco's have that, most don't. You mention the "phony structure" of college like you think it has no value at all. I specifically mentioned that it's not for everyone, but I found it to be fantastic myself. The dorm environment as well as being in the campus melting pot forces you to live with and experience a myriad of different personalities and cultures. Very few other opportunities like that exist except in small doses unless you travel abroad. If all life is about for you is getting to that next job a year earlier or a bit cheaper, my point would be entirely lost on you.

Just for reference, I worked through my tenure at a state college and had less than $8K in student loan debt when I graduated (2006) and find that to be well worth it. No $250K reminder hitting my bank account. It's not about re-living the movie Animal House, it's about seeing a world from a different perspective than the one you grew up with in your parent's home. Much tougher to do that when you're still living at home.
 
SoonerAviator said:
The dorm environment as well as being in the campus melting pot forces you to live with and experience a myriad of different personalities and cultures. Very few other opportunities like that exist except in small doses unless you travel abroad.
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Sounds like the typical airline pilot crash pad! ;)


If all life is about for you is getting to that next job a year earlier or a bit cheaper, my point would be entirely lost on you.
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If the guy's interested in being an airline pilot, life IS all about getting that job as early as possible, since the quality of the rest of his career will depend almost entirely on that seniority number, which is entirely dependent on the date hired. While nothing is guaranteed, the earlier you get the time building stepping stones (low paying, lousy QOL regionals etc.) out of the way, the earlier your chance at getting a real, career job.

This can't be overstated:

In the context of an airline career, seniority is life. Every person hired in front of you on the list will have first shot at schedules, airframes, domiciles, vacations, upgrade etc. for the rest of your time there until either they or you quit or retire. The more junior you are, the less of everything you'll have to choose from, and the more likely you'll be commuting to sit in a crash pad on reserve every weekend and holiday.

While I would've loved to have done the dorm thing, I have zero regrets in that regard when looking back from the perspective of a nearly 30 year airline career.


No $250K reminder hitting my bank account. It's not about re-living the movie Animal House, it's about seeing a world from a different perspective than the one you grew up with in your parent's home. Much tougher to do that when you're still living at home.
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Definitely great advice!

FWIW, the CC I attended was an 8 hour drive from my home on LI. There were no dorms, so I lived in a rooming house except for one summer, when I lived in an apartment I named the "Penn State (Beaver Campus) Dorm Annex", as it was mostly college students living in it. That was a FUN summer........

The aviation students did the bulk of our classes in classrooms at the airport, which was about 30 miles from the main college. Since I had transferred all of my credit from Hofstra, I only had a few classes at the normal college. The rest were at the airport with the other airplane dorks. ;) The male to female ratio in the aviation program was about 50:1, and the 4 or 5 females that were there were all in committed, long term relationships with the flight instructors. :mad2:
 
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Is pursuing a career as a pro pilot even worth it? Starting this thread has made me question it now.
 
James331 said:
A interview is not a guaranteed job.

Why the heck would they hire you when there are plenty of twin turbine cargo haulers and other non 121 turbine guys that have real ATPs and want the job?

I just don't see it

What airline is it?

I would like to be sure to not fly, nor have my family fly on it.

No turbine time, 50 multi, never had a flying job outside of CFIing, that's some scary stuff, sounds like Colgan II

Hope it works out, just doesn't sound like how I'd want to see a 121 hire folks.
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Unfortunately for you it is quite a few regionals so it would be hard to avoid. The airlines hire people straight from CFI even if they don't come from a college program so you'll never get away from this. And the colgan pilots had over 6000 hours combined... Which isn't a ton but I wouldn't say that hours were the biggest problem for that crew. I believe their error was more in training. But that's for another time. It's no different than folks building hours in pipeline patrol or skydiving etc... I understand your concern though.
 
Rob P. said:
Go to junior college for the basic classes.

The current appellation is "community college".

You can eliminate it entirely if you work while going to school and use your income to pay for school and not partying.

But don't ever let your schoolwork interfere with your education. If you know what I mean. :yes:
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.....
 
nickporter15 said:
Is pursuing a career as a pro pilot even worth it? Starting this thread has made me question it now.
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Only you can decide if it's for you......

It is definitely not a career for the weak of heart.

I can honestly say that if I knew then what I know now, I might not have pursued this career.

It is very cyclical, and if you get caught in a down cycle when you're ready for the next step, it can mean additional years of poverty level wages and lousy QOL. Conversely, if you time it right, the sky's the limit.

In my case, I got very lucky, but not all of it was luck. I was fortunate in that I had a mentor (dad) to help me make critical career decisions that definitely had an impact on my career.

One such decision was after a 3 month stint of non flying employment, I was offered 2 jobs. One at a large-ish east coast regional, and one at a small charter company on Long Island. At the charter company, I would start flying SIC in a King Air 200, and eventually progress to jets.

The regional flew ratted out 99's, new 1900s, new Saabs and brand new ATRs, and had bases all up and down the east coast, but none on LI. I was living on LI at the time and had a girlfriend (the future Mrs. Slipkid) in college, and was not really ready to leave, so I was leaning towards the charter outfit. My old man, and I thank him every time I see him for it, recommended the regional, as I would log a lot more hours of airline oriented flight time than the charter place. I reluctantly took his advice, and do not regret it. I logged almost 1k hours of turbine in my first year there (nearly all of it in ratted out Beech 99s with a few in brand new 1900s), which got me the hours for my ATP, and after I was furloughed, got me my next job as a 402 capt. I would've logged 20-50 hours per month, maybe, at the charter place. It also got me off LI and out of NY State, which has probably saved/will save me several hundred thousand dollars in taxes and cost of living over my life.

I spent 10 years doing substandard jobs with no future and low pay because by the time I had the hours to go to the next step (early '90's), we were in a recession and very few majors were hiring for the next 4-5 years. FWIW, I got hired at my current company right after my 31st b-day and consider that awesome.......

I know a few guys that really hit the marks. A family friend did Riddle, got a job at a Wings type commuter, worked there for about a year, and got hired at American in 1984 at the ripe old age of 24. He is mega senior over there now, and has had a great career.

A guy I work with now went to Dowling, got hired and upgraded quickly at Eagle, did a few years there, and got hired here, also at 24, He upgraded to Capt at 30, married a hot FA and will retire #1 on the seniority list.

Conversely, I know guys my age who are on airline number 9 or 10, or are very junior on large lists via mergers etc. Some of them never upgraded to Capt. at the regional level, even when they could hold it, for QOL reasons. This lack of PICT has definitely hurt them in the job market later on. One of them has over 15k hours, and not ONE hour of PIC turbine, which is typically required for a major job, even if it's not listed in the minimum requirements. Had he taken the upgrade 20 years ago, he'd have had many more career options and would less likely to be stuck at the bottom of a large, young list.

This brings me to another good bit of advice, which is applicable to any career:

STAY OUT OF DEBT!

The difference between weathering a furlough, bankruptcy, lousy regional/corporate pay etc. in relative comfort, or not, is largely dependent on how much you owe.

One of my best friends, and one of the smartest people I know, embraced the Dave Ramsey philosophy long before Dave was writing about it. He is an ERAU grad, and still had tons of debt in loans and credit cards when we were working for a commuter. He was single and shared a house with a few other pilots. Another great bit of advice.... don't marry early.... aside from the financial benefits, there are other ancillary benefits to eligible batchelor-ness, especially at the commuter level. :wink2: .

Back before the changes to reserve rules, he made a deal with scheduling where he sat reserve EVERY day for about a year, getting paid 3.8 hours per. As long as he didn't fly 7 days in a row (which would never happen anyway..... reserves didn't get used that much there), he was legal. He paid off ALL of his debt and actually started saving cash, which got him a down payment on a modest house, which he paid off, and then later sold for a large profit, allowing him to build a larger house, which he also paid off with a 10 year loan.

This lack of debt paid dividends when the airline he had been working at (ATA) for over 15 years went belly up. All he had was RE tax, utilities and insurance bill on the house, plus a mortgage/insurance on his airplane (To help him keep it, I nearly got a sweet deal on part ownership in his beautiful T-34 out of the deal, but he was able to work it out himself. I'm glad he was able to work it out). He got a job at Kalitta for a year or 2, and then, taking a large pay cut, went to Virgin America. His complete lack of debt made the dismal pay at VA bearable.
 
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nickporter15, here's my final .02:

If it were me going into a career as a professional pilot (I'm not one for clarification), I'd be looking at doing it Part 61. First, due to the time that can be saved by earning ratings/etc by not being locked into a set syllabus. Second, the significant money savings that normally accompanies not paying for the overhead of being at Spartan/ERAU/etc. Guys spending $100K+ to get an Aviation Management degree and enough hours for consideration at a Regional is a lot more expensive than going Private thru Comm part 61, and then building time via CFI work or other charter ops.

Example: I earned my Private for $6K all-costs included in 2008 by renting a 172 and an independent instructor. I started in November '07 and finished mid-Feb '08. Many friends/acquaintances did the Private through Spartan and other "flight schools" to the tune of $12K+, which took them a semester or more to achieve due to flight scheduling, hour requirements, multiple mock check-rides, etc. that hindered their progress. Since it seems like the main concern of any airline is: #1 a 4-yr degree (any degree), and #2 relevant flight hours (multi-time/turbine), it seems logical that getting those done as quickly as possible for the least amount of money is the best option for an aspiring ATP. Hence Part 61 for the flying, and getting a degree in whatever suits your fancy at a state college. As I mentioned previously, you might find a state college with an aviation program, which will still be way less than the ERAU route in all likelihood.

The benefit to having a non-Aviation-specific degree is that it's applicable when the airlines furlough you, or you decide you don't want to fly anymore. You can work in airport management and other aviation jobs fairly easily without the aviation degree, it's much harder to work outside of aviation with that aviation-specific degree. You REALLY need to consider your degree choice objectively, because we all share a love for aviation, but it's well established that Aviation is a cyclical industry which may not have a place for you once or twice in your flying career and you should be prepared when that time comes. Good luck with whatever route you decide is best for you!
 
Well said Sooner! I can't agree more!
 
It seems like you are trying to justify it based off of a corporate job that "only hires people from a certain school." If you are hell-bent on that particular job. I would start networking at that company. I am sure not everyone who has flown for them has gone to that school.
 
Slipkid65 said:
Sounds like the typical airline pilot crash pad! ;)
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Slipkid65 said:
If the guy's interested in being an airline pilot, life IS all about getting that job as early as possible, since the quality of the rest of his career will depend almost entirely on that seniority number, which is entirely dependent on the date hired. While nothing is guaranteed, the earlier you get the time building stepping stones (low paying, lousy QOL regionals etc.) out of the way, the earlier your chance at getting a real, career job.

This can't be overstated:

In the context of an airline career, seniority is life. Every person hired in front of you on the list will have first shot at schedules, airframes, domiciles, vacations, upgrade etc. for the rest of your time there until either they or you quit or retire. The more junior you are, the less of everything you'll have to choose from, and the more likely you'll be commuting to sit in a crash pad on reserve every weekend and holiday.

While I would've loved to have done the dorm thing, I have zero regrets in that regard when looking back from the perspective of a nearly 30 year airline career.




Definitely great advice!

FWIW, the CC I attended was an 8 hour drive from my home on LI. There were no dorms, so I lived in a rooming house except for one summer, when I lived in an apartment I named the "Penn State (Beaver Campus) Dorm Annex", as it was mostly college students living in it. That was a FUN summer........

The aviation students did the bulk of our classes in classrooms at the airport, which was about 30 miles from the main college. Since I had transferred all of my credit from Hofstra, I only had a few classes at the normal college. The rest were at the airport with the other airplane dorks. ;) The male to female ratio in the aviation program was about 50:1, and the 4 or 5 females that were there were all in committed, long term relationships with the flight instructors. :mad2:
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wihtout the sausage fest.
 
SoonerAviator said:
The benefit to having a non-Aviation-specific degree is that it's applicable when the airlines furlough you, or you decide you don't want to fly anymore. You can work in airport management and other aviation jobs fairly easily without the aviation degree, it's much harder to work outside of aviation with that aviation-specific degree. You REALLY need to consider your degree choice objectively, because we all share a love for aviation, but it's well established that Aviation is a cyclical industry which may not have a place for you once or twice in your flying career and you should be prepared when that time comes. Good luck with whatever route you decide is best for you!
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I'm late to the thread, but FIRMLY in the camp of get a real degree from a real school and learn to fly on the side/your own. College has gotten a lot more expensive since I went ('91-'96) and aviation college doubly so. As my OU colleague stated, you can find jobs in aviation with any number of "real" degrees, but you cannot find many jobs out of aviation with an aviation degree. I took aerospace engineering and fly for fun on my own, but still day-dream about flying jobs. I wouldn't recommend AE unless you are REALLY dedicated and have an aptitude for math and science because you likely cannot find a more difficult undergrad degree plan. However, it has been quite rewarding and allowed me to work in the industry and buy a plane. :) The thought of going into 100k+ of debt today AND starting in a flying job for $20k/year is nauseating. Instead, I was able to graduate with zero debt and start a professional career at 3x what the regionals were paying at the time.

I'd recommend you start soul-searching for something that interests you deeply, otherwise you likely won't ever finish a four-year degree. Engineering, business, etc. Something substantial. Do everything you can to minimize debt thru scholarships, community college, living frugally, etc. Get involved in the university life with extracurricular activities. Try to find a school with a good flying club or formal flight school, not a flight school with a degree on the side. You'll have a lot of great experiences in a real college, and end up with something that can support you should you lose your medical, or just eventually figure out that flying for a living removes all of the fun of flying.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
It seems like you are trying to justify it based off of a corporate job that "only hires people from a certain school." If you are hell-bent on that particular job. I would start networking at that company. I am sure not everyone who has flown for them has gone to that school.
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No not at all. A family friend went there and his son did also. His son is now chief pilot at that corporation, and many of the other pilots there are all from this specific university. This is why they offered the possible internship if it went to that university
 
nickporter15 said:
No not at all. A family friend went there and his son did also. His son is now chief pilot at that corporation, and many of the other pilots there are all from this specific university. This is why they offered the possible internship if it went to that university
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So a family friend would refuse you an internship if you do not go to this school?
 
Picking a school because of a connection with one company is nuts.
 
TrevorHN47 said:
Unfortunately for you it is quite a few regionals so it would be hard to avoid. The airlines hire people straight from CFI even if they don't come from a college program so you'll never get away from this. And the colgan pilots had over 6000 hours combined... Which isn't a ton but I wouldn't say that hours were the biggest problem for that crew. I believe their error was more in training. But that's for another time. It's no different than folks building hours in pipeline patrol or skydiving etc... I understand your concern though.
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It's quite different compared to pipeline or large DZ ops.

Wearing the CFI hat is a rather different animal compared to being a sole pilot.

A good CFI will not touch the controls much, only to correct the really big screw ups and for a demo here and there.

A DZ or Pipeline guy is the only one flying the plane, for pipe line you're actually flying real cross countries too.

Those guys then go on to 135 freight and pax ops most times, twin turbine time, bi yearly check rides, real weather ops, etc.

After that they move on to trying to get on with a airline.

I still highly doubt a zero real world experience CFI who hasn't logged any hours outside of the flight school environment is going to get a job over a guy who flew 135, pipeline, AG, etc.

Just like colgan and the P2F hours he had, straight CFIing does not build the type of hours that will solely prepare you for larger aircraft and 121 ops IMO

A smart prospective pilot who (for whatever reason) wanted to fly for the airlines should go the FBO route, get some glider time, split piston hours with a buddy, get their CPL then get 1,000hrs (CFIing or fly charter in Africa), come back and get some twin turbine time at ameriflight or cape air, or weasel into a king air job and move up from there.


A CPL shouldn't cost ya more than $60k, and that's with a online degree in whatever.
 
I went all the way through Riddle and I have deep regrets. Go to your local FBO to get your ratings. Get a degree in whatever interests you from an affordable university. Your degree is your back-up for when the industry experiences its ups-and-downs. Save your money. Riddle will put you in debt for many years after you graduate.
 
Almost all professional flying gigs require a degree, any degree seems to work, art history to zoo management. Aviation degrees will limit your job opportunities to aviation related fields. I would certainly look at other majors at a state school, get your PPL and CFI, build time while you're in school. That's what my first CFI did, he taught while he was in college and later went the airline route. :D
 
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