Close Call - Should I ASRS This?

VWGhiaBob

VWGhiaBob

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VWGhiaBob
Yesterday, I had a close call IN THE PATTERN and I'm wondering if it's ASRS material. Before take-off we got Clearance with Flight Following through BUR airspace, with vectors to Riverside.

Immediately after take-off, Van Nuys released us for frequency change to So Cal., and we contacted So. Cal., still in the pattern.

So. Cal. said, "Syklane XXX, execute an immediate left 30 degree turn to avoid pattern traffic at 12 o'clock. The Van Nuys tower should not have released you, turn now!" Obviously, we turned abruptly. We thanked them.

Clearly, this should not have happened.

Question is, should this get reported? After all, it was a close call in the traffic pattern (left crosswind), which the tower should have caught. On the other hand, I don't want to open up a can of worms. In theory, my instructor and I should have seen the traffic (a theory only in my opinion).

Any thoughts?
 
Send in the ASRS form. It could help minimize the chances of this happening again at that airport.
 
Looks like winds were out of the north yesterday; were you departing 34L? If so, traffic departing 34R might have been lower than you and difficult to pick out with the congested city below.

Yeah, I'd send in the form. That's what it's for, to identify potentially bad situations, and to get them corrected if possible. Its use as a conditional "free pass" is only secondary, and to encourage use of the system.
 
We departed 16R at around 2:30pm for a long cross country. I will consider sending it in, but don't want to use up my "free pass" for something that wasn't my fault.
 
Send in the form,it will help show where a problem may exist? What if so cal hadn't answered your call right away?
 
You could send in the form, but I bet it's already been reported to the system.
 
The purpose of ASRS is to collect data about risky things that happen in aviation. Your story could become part of ATC training or the ASRS Callback (http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/publications/callback.html). The point is that ASRS exists for the purpose of collecting information on incidents just like this so the broader aviation community can learn and prevent future incidents. File the report any time you felt something bad could have happened!
 
You departed 16R, but where on left crosswind? Did you cross the end of 16L, or get into the traffic patter for 16L?
 
After you have a chance to change your shorts maybe call the tower to discuss with them. Maybe it was something they would like to be aware of, maybe it was nothing and SoCal got excited for no reason.

Most ATC folks seem to want to avoid any type of safety problem, maybe going to extremes to avoid anything they perceive to be a potential conflict. Sometimes the potential is miniscule. Sometimes we (pilots) need to point things out from our perspective. Sometimes we need to keep our yaps shut and call later.

Can't hurt to ASRS.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
We departed 16R at around 2:30pm for a long cross country. I will consider sending it in, but don't want to use up my "free pass" for something that wasn't my fault.
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Doesn't work like that. You can submit unlimited ASRS reports. If you should ever have an enforcement action that qualifies, and you have proof of the ASRS report, you'll be covered.

Furthermore, if you DO have an enforcement action, you have to use the "free pass" in that case, even if it's minor and you're worried about a bigger suspension coming later in your career. That's because the qualifier for the "free pass" is any enforcement action in the last five years -- it's not "you get one free pass every five years". So you have no choice but to use it for the first enforcement action you get, should that ever occur (no saving it up).

Oh, and the whole point of the program is not to give free passes to pilots but to be a safety tool. This is exactly the sort of thing that should be submitted, because it was a genuine safety concern and a misunderstanding between ATC should always be straightened out by someone. If something similar happens in the future don't hold back the ASRS report simply because you know you didn't do anything wrong -- submit it anyway so the powers that be can get the safety data they need.
 
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PPC1052 said:
You departed 16R, but where on left crosswind? Did you cross the end of 16L, or get into the traffic patter for 16L?
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Yes...When departing 16R, a left crosswind is the common departure for IFR when traversing BUR airspace. The other traffic (which we never saw) was (probably) entering downwind for 16L.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
I will consider sending it in, but don't want to use up my "free pass" for something that wasn't my fault.
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The "free pass" can only be useful to you once every (I think) five years, but just sending a report doesn't trigger that. Only if the FAA actually takes action against you and the report saves you does it count as "using it".

So, file the report or not as you see fit, but don't worry about "using up your free pass" as a reason not to file. It will only be used up if it really does save you from an enforcement action.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Yes...When departing 16R, a left crosswind is the common departure for IFR when traversing BUR airspace. The other traffic (which we never saw) was (probably) entering downwind for 16L.
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The Glendale One Departure from 16R calls for flying straight out until the VNY 2.2 DME fix, then left turn to 110 (and often tower calls the turn). I can't ever remember being given a "left crosswind" or anything close to a 90° left turn from 16R IFR. How far south were you? Close to the Ventura Freeway?
 
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If you have to ask you should file it.

I'm told be careful what you put in the title... they can go looking in the title for fresh fish and you're not covered there if you admit a violation.
 
Jeff K said:
If you have to ask you should file it.

I'm told be careful what you put in the title... they can go looking in the title for fresh fish and you're not covered there if you admit a violation.
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Not sure I understand what you are saying here. Please explain
 
Bill Watson said:
Not sure I understand what you are saying here. Please explain
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If you write, "possible loss of separation" as the title you're fine. If you wrote, "I almost hit another aircraft" you've opened the door to a possible violation of see and avoid.

FAA isn't allowing ASRS to be a complete "get out of jail free" card and never has. It's a safety reporting system.

Keep admissions of possible violations out of the title. The title is public record. Report the problem clinically like a safety manager would word it.
 
I took the advice above...reached out to the tower. Perhaps So Cal was wrong and there was no issue. Best to at least get the two parties talking to get all the facts before filing.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
I took the advice above...reached out to the tower. Perhaps So Cal was wrong and there was no issue. Best to at least get the two parties talking to get all the facts before filing.
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Andy Sipowicz would have liked you. :no:

File the report. You have 10 days. You really don't want your ass hanging out there if the tower filed their own report.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
I took the advice above...reached out to the tower. Perhaps So Cal was wrong and there was no issue. Best to at least get the two parties talking to get all the facts before filing.
Click to expand...

Just file it. It doesn't take long, doesn't hurt you, and won't get anyone else in trouble. They probably get a thousand submissions every week, mostly for mundane events... it's not a big deal to do it.
 
Absolutely do not file. You were following ATC instructions and did nothing wrong. No good deed goes unpunished...
 
ASRS isn't only about reporting one's own mistakes, it's for reporting any safety of flight events one is involved in, in this CAS getting bad instructions from tower.
 
What about your instructor? I would think he would want to submit a report to protect himself.
 
My instructor thought it was awful, as did So. Cal. I wasn't thinking of submitting to protect myself, but to improve the system.

I get the whole idea of "see and avoid". But anyone who flies knows that no pilot...even one who never looks inside the plane...can ever see all the traffic. That's why we're supplemented by ATC and Towers, right?

In this case, the Van Nuys tower didn't see the traffic (or didn't tell us) and we couldn't see the traffic even after being informed. For all I know, it was a glitch on the ATC radar system (seems unlikely).

I hear KVNY is a training facility. My guess is that the controller (who I've never heard before...new voice) simply made a mistake.

I will probably report it, but first want to hear back from the tower. If they talk to ATC at see it as an incident, I will file.

Stay tuned...
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Yesterday, I had a close call IN THE PATTERN and I'm wondering if it's ASRS material. Before take-off we got Clearance with Flight Following through BUR airspace, with vectors to Riverside.

Immediately after take-off, Van Nuys released us for frequency change to So Cal., and we contacted So. Cal., still in the pattern.

So. Cal. said, "Syklane XXX, execute an immediate left 30 degree turn to avoid pattern traffic at 12 o'clock. The Van Nuys tower should not have released you, turn now!" Obviously, we turned abruptly. We thanked them.

Clearly, this should not have happened.

Question is, should this get reported? After all, it was a close call in the traffic pattern (left crosswind), which the tower should have caught. On the other hand, I don't want to open up a can of worms. In theory, my instructor and I should have seen the traffic (a theory only in my opinion).

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
I'm confused.....what you've described doesn't make sense. How would SoCal Approach see a conflict within the VNY traffic pattern that the VNY Tower did not???

Are you sure it wasn't a conflict with BUR traffic? If you were doing a left crosswind departure from 16R at VNY, that would have you heading directly toward BUR. If VNY tower wasn't paying attention when they handed you off, I can see how there might be a conflict with an aircraft on the approach to 08 at BUR.
 
BobThePilot said:
Absolutely do not file. You were following ATC instructions and did nothing wrong. No good deed goes unpunished...
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You obviously do not understand the ASRS system. You do not have to have done anything wrong to make a report about something that was unsafe. He can file a report and state that tower directed him to do something that turned out to be unsafe and that he had no way of knowing about the potential conflict.
 
dukeblue219 said:
Doesn't work like that. You can submit unlimited ASRS reports. If you should ever have an enforcement action that qualifies, and you have proof of the ASRS report, you'll be covered.

Furthermore, if you DO have an enforcement action, you have to use the "free pass" in that case, even if it's minor and you're worried about a bigger suspension coming later in your career. That's because the qualifier for the "free pass" is any enforcement action in the last five years -- it's not "you get one free pass every five years". So you have no choice but to use it for the first enforcement action you get, should that ever occur (no saving it up).

Oh, and the whole point of the program is not to give free passes to pilots but to be a safety tool. This is exactly the sort of thing that should be submitted, because it was a genuine safety concern and a misunderstanding between ATC should always be straightened out by someone. If something similar happens in the future don't hold back the ASRS report simply because you know you didn't do anything wrong -- submit it anyway so the powers that be can get the safety data they need.
Click to expand...
Exactly.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
My instructor thought it was awful, as did So. Cal. I wasn't thinking of submitting to protect myself, but to improve the system.

I get the whole idea of "see and avoid". But anyone who flies knows that no pilot...even one who never looks inside the plane...can ever see all the traffic. That's why we're supplemented by ATC and Towers, right?

In this case, the Van Nuys tower didn't see the traffic (or didn't tell us) and we couldn't see the traffic even after being informed. For all I know, it was a glitch on the ATC radar system (seems unlikely).QUOTE]

If you were already Freq changed to SoCal, how would tower warn you?

On the ASRS reports I like to title mine "Whoa Nelly" or "Are you thinking what I'm thinking?" (From movie Get Smart):lol:
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Fearless Tower said:
I'm confused.....what you've described doesn't make sense. How would SoCal Approach see a conflict within the VNY traffic pattern that the VNY Tower did not???

Are you sure it wasn't a conflict with BUR traffic? If you were doing a left crosswind departure from 16R at VNY, that would have you heading directly toward BUR. If VNY tower wasn't paying attention when they handed you off, I can see how there might be a conflict with an aircraft on the approach to 08 at BUR.
Click to expand...

Fearless...no I'm not sure it wasn't BUR traffic. I was just turning left crosswind when it happened. The whole thing doesn't make sense to me either, but it happened exactly as I described...in (or close) to the KVNY pattern, BEFORE BUR airspace, turning to left crosswind, and So. Cal. was shocked KVNY turned me over with no mention of traffic. What it KVNY, or BUR traffic or just a Helicopter going up the 405? Who knows. We never saw it.

I any case, the tower is supposed to get back to me today to find out why I was handed off.
 
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