Clipped corner of bravo...

O

One Dumb Idiot

Guest
I let myself get a little distracted while flying with my wife today, and flew up into the underside of the outer edge of the outer ring of the local bravo airspace. My GPS said I was right on the edge and I didn't think about it and went up into it by about 500' within one mile of being clear.

ATC gave me a little verbal scolding (well deserved - I immediately dived) and didn't give me any numbers to call or anything...

If ATC noticed and didn't pursue it further than a reprimand, is an ASRS report necessary? And what is the link for them just in case?
 
One Dumb Idiot said:
I let myself get a little distracted while flying with my wife today, and flew up into the underside of the outer edge of the outer ring of the local bravo airspace. My GPS said I was right on the edge and I didn't think about it and went up into it by about 500' within one mile of being clear.

ATC gave me a little verbal scolding (well deserved - I immediately dived) and didn't give me any numbers to call or anything...

If ATC noticed and didn't pursue it further than a reprimand, is an ASRS report necessary? And what is the link for them just in case?
Click to expand...

You lucked out most likely. An ASRS report won't do anything to keep you out of trouble should they come looking, but you can file one for the database. Sorry, don't have the link. If they didn't come after you right away, they probably won't. Feel very lucky. I can pretty much bet it wasn't the LAX Class B, everyone I know whose touched it inapropriately has done 10 hrs remedial and a ride.
 
One Dumb Idiot said:
I let myself get a little distracted while flying with my wife today, and flew up into the underside of the outer edge of the outer ring of the local bravo airspace. My GPS said I was right on the edge and I didn't think about it and went up into it by about 500' within one mile of being clear.

ATC gave me a little verbal scolding (well deserved - I immediately dived) and didn't give me any numbers to call or anything...

If ATC noticed and didn't pursue it further than a reprimand, is an ASRS report necessary? And what is the link for them just in case?
Click to expand...
Just report it. Make sure the title isn't "Illegal incursion into class B", use something like "Inflight Distraction".

Here's the form:
 
bbchien said:
Just report it. Make sure the title isn't "Illegal incursion into class B", use something like "Inflight Distraction".

Here's the form:
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Or better yet "Observed discrepancy between ATC radar plotted and charted airspace boundaries". It is a known problem. ATC radar depicts the Class B space with somewhat error prone boundaries. If you fly just outside (i.e. one wing span outside) the visual landmarks ATC will bark frequently. Quite possible that you were indeed outside, not that it will matter if the enforcement starts as ATC radar will rule.
 
Henning said:
You lucked out most likely. An ASRS report won't do anything to keep you out of trouble should they come looking, but you can file one for the database.
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ASRS will stop the sanction, whatever that would be. The event was inadvertent, which is the major criteria to be considered in this case.
 
I agree with the others -- file the report. If nothing happens, no big deal -- there's no limit on the number of ASRS you can file, only on the number of times you can use a filed ASRS to get out of hot water. If the controller does decide to file a Pilot Deviation ("PD"), you're covered. And since you've only got 10 days from when it happened to file and get immunity, do it NOW.

That said...

My GPS said I was right on the edge and I didn't think about it and went up into it by about 500' within one mile of being clear.
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This is what everyone says when the F-16 pulls up on their wing. Folks, I don't care how good your GPS is -- give the TFR's, ADIZ's and B-spaces more room. 90% of the ADIZ incursions around here involve tiny nicks while trying to circumnavigate with minimum clearance. Give yourself more room!!!

When I'm skirting the ADIZ, I use a 5-mile buffer zone. Same for staying under shelves -- whenever possible, use at least 500 feet. Yes, I know, you can't stay under a 1500-foot shelf over a congested area that way, especially when you're overflying an airport whose pattern is 1100 MSL (like near Suburban in the corridor south of BWI). However, do the best you can to give yourself enough margin for error that a 100-foot altitude slip won't bust the airspace.
 
What Ron & Bruce and everyone said!!

Last summer, I was flying down the Carolina coast on Sunday. Bunch of the restricted areas were cold. I was talking to center (in this case military controller) at a point where my GPS clearly (but close) showed me out of the restricted area. Asked the controller 'bout it since traffic was slow. He said I was about two miles in the restricted area!! Geesh.

Also, I received an update from my IFR certified GPS last year that had some incorrect info in it. I checked the ring of the class B in two places and could see visually, the GPS ring was incorrect. Also saw a couple of interstections weren't right.

Called Jepp when I got back and got all sorts of run-around about the M-3 folks making an error; it wasn't Jepps' fault.

Glad I didn't bust space and have to argue that one. Even if you prevail, it wouldn't be fun.

Best,

Dave
A-36TN ADS
 
ah yes, beware of Giant Killer (R-5301 & R-5302)... rockets are difficult to see. :)
 
Not that I'm going to tempt fate myself, but your GPS is way more accurate than their radar. Last I heard there was about a 1/4 mile resolution on radar.
 
AirBaker said:
Not that I'm going to tempt fate myself, but your GPS is way more accurate than their radar. Last I heard there was about a 1/4 mile resolution on radar.
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Unfortunately, their radar is the standard by which you are judged. So for me, it's a 5-mile buffer around the ADIZ unless I'm with them on an assigned squawk.
 
Everyone is making it all sound so serious, but is it really? I've clipped the San Francisco class B twice in my career, once having left it after being cleared in on a Bay Tour (to avoid clouds ahead; I thought I was far enough out to be under the next higher shelf) and once just the corner of a different shelf during a climb and was clear of it 1/2 mile later.

In the former case, the controller just pointed it out and I corrected. No big deal, but the guy could've filed a PD on me.

In the latter case I wasn't talking to approach so there wasn't anyone to bark at me... other than the DPE sitting to my right on my CPL checkride, who again merely pointed it out and allowed me to correct it and didn't penalize me for it.

Of course, "keep big buffers" and "be careful" are the correct advice. And certainly if it creates an incident, an incursion warrants sanctions or other corrective action. But if you just accidentally clip a boundary and it doesn't break a TFR or cause some other problem, how likely are you to be written up? Is it really as much of a gigantic no-no as we're suggesting?
 
Henning said:
You lucked out most likely. An ASRS report won't do anything to keep you out of trouble should they come looking, but you can file one for the database. Sorry, don't have the link. If they didn't come after you right away, they probably won't. Feel very lucky. I can pretty much bet it wasn't the LAX Class B, everyone I know whose touched it inapropriately has done 10 hrs remedial and a ride.
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Or Chicago. I was told by one of my CFIs that if you bust the 1900 foot Class B west of O'Hare and over Schaumburg it's a mandatory 90 day suspension. Even Phil Boyer said he had to be mindful of that bringing in the Citation.

If I check and am outside the DME distance is that mitigating against what radar shows? I guess it's only my word because the DME doesn't have bread crumbs.

I thought I heard that one pilot got out of a bust because he had the GPS bread crumbs showing where he was
 
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Ed Guthrie said:
Or better yet "Observed discrepancy between ATC radar plotted and charted airspace boundaries". It is a known problem. ATC radar depicts the Class B space with somewhat error prone boundaries. If you fly just outside (i.e. one wing span outside) the visual landmarks ATC will bark frequently. Quite possible that you were indeed outside, not that it will matter if the enforcement starts as ATC radar will rule.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly... :)
 
AirBaker said:
Not that I'm going to tempt fate myself, but your GPS is way more accurate than their radar. Last I heard there was about a 1/4 mile resolution on radar.
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GPS accuracy and the accuracy of the database (which draws the rings, etc.) are two different things.:yes:

If all you are doing is looking at the glass box and steering clear of the rings, well.... if the rings are wrong you may indeed be busted!

-Skip
 
mikea said:
I thought I heard that one pilot got out of aa bust becuase he had the GPS bread crumbs showing where he was
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I believe Mrs Boyer got out of an ADIZ violation because she had ADS-B data showing where she was, and it was WAYYYYY out of the ADIZ. Since the ADS-B installation and data recording was part of an FAA test program, they pretty much had to accept the data or else state that the system they developed is terribly inaccurate.

Here in DeeCee you get ADIZ busts from two sources - ATC radar (which is known to not match the charts but the ATC folks don't automatically panic if someone clips a border if they are not flying inbound), and airborne DoD radar - AWACS? - which uses GPS to determine it's position and then calculate everyone else. That system automagically flags every "intruder", and there's practically no human judgement involved - if you get flagged, you get investigated. It occasionally may miscalculate your position, but I think it's fairly accurate.

The problem with the AWACS is that it's SO automated and powerful that it practically generates the letter of investigation. Your target will get flagged, tracked to point of landing, and a nice little report is created for the FAA to follow up on. DHS policy is that every bust of the airspace is to be investigated, and suspensions are mandatory. So the Sergeant in the AWACS is not allowed to use his judgement and decide that you inadvertentently clipped the ADIZ by .05 NM as you flew up the west side on your way to Frederick and ignore it - that report gets generated and someone has to follow up on it. That helps generate "data" on how unsafe the skies are and how bad we VFR pilots are...

As Ron says, a 5 NM "cushion" will save everyone a lot of grief, and won't add significantly to your travel time.
 
mikea said:
If I check and am outside the DME distance is that mitigating agaisnt what radar shows?
Click to expand...
No.

I guess it's only my word because the DME doesn't have bread crumbs.
Click to expand...
Right, and to an ALJ, the FAA's radar tapes have more credibility than your self-serving testimony.

I thought I heard that one pilot got out of aa bust becuase he had the GPS bread crumbs showing where he was
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As noted above, it was a she, not a he, and yes, her ADS-B trace proved that they had mistakenly identified the plane which busted the airspace as hers. They had gotten two 1200 squawks crossed, and the back-trace had mistakenly linked to her plot, not the plane which actually busted the ADIZ. The ADS-B check showed that the traces had been crossed, and her plane never went near the ADIZ. However, that only proved that it was not her plane which did it, not that the airspace wasn't busted. I don't know if they ever ID'd the other plane, but I'm sure they tried.
 
Ron Levy said:
No.

Right, and to an ALJ, the FAA's radar tapes have more credibility than your self-serving testimony.

As noted above, it was a she, not a he, and yes, her ADS-B trace proved that they had mistakenly identified the plane which busted the airspace as hers. They had gotten two 1200 squawks crossed, and the back-trace had mistakenly linked to her plot, not the plane which actually busted the ADIZ. The ADS-B check showed that the traces had been crossed, and her plane never went near the ADIZ. However, that only proved that it was not her plane which did it, not that the airspace wasn't busted. I don't know if they ever ID'd the other plane, but I'm sure they tried.
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No. I was thinking of a case we talked about many years before the DC ADIZ and 9/11. It was an alleged restricted area or Class B bust.
 
mikea said:
No. I was thinking of a case we talked about many years before the DC ADIZ and 9/11. It was an alleged restricted area or Class B bust.
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Back then I would imagine a VFR target not talking to anyone only got investigated if the airspace bust caused a loss of separation (and a "snitch" on the controller) or if it was really blatant. And I would imagine that in the case of a misidentification, when the FSDO investigator was given a GPS data file showing the airplane outside the airspace they might be have been willing to close the investigation saying that they were unable to conclusively ID the airplane/pilot, or that no further action was recommended.

Nowadays, however, the FAA is under intense scrutiny to actively control all the "controlled" airspace (A,B,C) and to justify that the do it well from a security standpoint, not just from a safety/efficiency standpoint. This is how DHS airspace security nincompoops justify their miserable existence (note - there are some very good folks in DHS, but it seems that they have no input into policy, or are having policy imposed on them from further up the chain. - No disrespect is intended towards the good guys.)
 
The ADIZ brings up a red herring...
Is there such a thing as too much restricted airspace?
When one considers that a truck bomb (ala OKC) is a greater threat than most general aviation aircraft and that UAVs could penetrate restricted airspace faster than most anti-aircraft could respond...what good does it do?
Are we wasting resources chasing down wayward pilots that could better be used by the military to respond to actual threats?
I am not talking about the Class B airspace here. When flying VFR down to Orlando a few years back, I was very concerned about some restricted areas. When I finally found a center freq that would answer, they said that the areas were cold (whew!):blueplane:
ApacheBob
 
ApacheBob said:
The ADIZ brings up a red herring...
Is there such a thing as too much restricted airspace?
When one considers that a truck bomb (ala OKC) is a greater threat than most general aviation aircraft and that UAVs could penetrate restricted airspace faster than most anti-aircraft could respond...what good does it do?
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Congratulations -- you just made the case for extending the ADIZ out to 60nm, which is something USSS wants, but has thus far been denied them. At the end of the day, the ADIZ is really there to protect us from being shot down, not to protect the President from light planes. The problem is that they have limited reaction time to determine whether or not the bogey is hostile. The ADIZ establishes the point at which they begin the ID process, and the FRZ establishes the point at which they begin arming weapons. If they can't make that determination before the bogey reaches the point at which it could actually cause harm to the National Command Authority, they have to shoot. If they didn't have the ADIZ, someone would by now have been splashed because they weren't able to confirm non-hostile status before getting that close.

Are we wasting resources chasing down wayward pilots that could better be used by the military to respond to actual threats?
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The folks who penetrate the ADIZ cause the military to expend resources trying to determine hostile intent. If we didn't punish folks for violating it, they wouldn't take it seriously, and the military would have to spend a lot more (or shoot down a few of us who got too close). I'll choose the ADIZ over those other options.
 
Of course, that assumes that the life of the President and/or Congress is worth shooting down an airliner, probably to crash into a residential area and kill innocent citizens.

If the threat really is likely, I think those high-value targets should be housed in Cheynne Mountain, or some other isolated area.

If it's not that likely a threat , then those folks should take their chances with us normal citizens - they volunteered when they ran for office.

Sorry if this reply is too spin-zonish.
 
TMetzinger said:
If the threat really is likely, I think those high-value targets should be housed in Cheynne Mountain, or some other isolated area.
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Let's not and say we did. :eek:

Cheyenne Mountain is not exactly in an isolated area. It's next to the second largest city in Colorado. Keep those congressfolk where they belong, NIMBY. :rolleyes:
 
Ron Levy said:
Unfortunately, their radar is the standard by which you are judged. So for me, it's a 5-mile buffer around the ADIZ unless I'm with them on an assigned squawk.
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Well, not that I'd want to try it, but I'd imagine if you really just 'clipped' bravo, argue the accuracy of the radar. It's not a perfect argument, but it's what I'd do.
 
Skip Miller said:
GPS accuracy and the accuracy of the database (which draws the rings, etc.) are two different things.:yes:

If all you are doing is looking at the glass box and steering clear of the rings, well.... if the rings are wrong you may indeed be busted!

-Skip
Click to expand...

True.

My 'map' accuracy is pretty good. But I'm not going to fly 10 feet from a Bravo border just to see if I can do it. :)
 
AirBaker said:
Well, not that I'd want to try it, but I'd imagine if you really just 'clipped' bravo, argue the accuracy of the radar. It's not a perfect argument, but it's what I'd do.
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The record suggests that such an argument will not sell. Better to keep the five-mile buffer and thus avoid the need to argue.
 
Ron Levy said:
The record suggests that such an argument will not sell. Better to keep the five-mile buffer and thus avoid the need to argue.
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I'm afraid that a 5 mile buffer is simply not an option for me on most of my flights. A Bravo clearance isn't much better as it results in being vectored WAY out of your way.

I did have one controller that stated I had busted class B airspace. The mode c information she was receving from my transponder was completely out of whack. The worst part was I had already left her frequency as I was clear of her class D airspace. I'm afraid she was thinking that I ignored her.

Another pilot (Skyhog) informed me after I landed that he heard the controller saying that I had violated the class b airspace. He also stated that he had a visual on me the entire time and I was lower than him. I also checked my GPS track to verify that I did not bust it. I didn't. I never did hear from anyone about the incident. But I will say it's not something you want to be told upon landing.

I've been GPS-less for quite awhile now and I just use landmarks on the ground to stay out of the Bravo. It's way more reassuring because I'm pretty damn sure the lakes haven't moved since the sectional was released.
 
Ron Levy said:
The record suggests that such an argument will not sell. Better to keep the five-mile buffer and thus avoid the need to argue.
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Well, like Jesse said, 5 miles is a bit far. San Carlos airport out here is just tucked right underneath the SFO shelf.

Plus I think those previous arguments were potentially made by pilots that were very much inside the Bravo.
 
AirBaker said:
Well, like Jesse said, 5 miles is a bit far. San Carlos airport out here is just tucked right underneath the SFO shelf.
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Sorry -- I thought we were discussing the DC area. Yes, outside the DC area, there is a lot less concern with staying well clear of Bravo space. Nevertheless, even in SFO or MSP, I recommend that unless you're in contact with ATC, you still give it 5 miles or as close to that as is feasible. As for Mode C problems, that's another story entirely -- if your encoder isn't putting out right, turn it off and either stay outside the veil or make arrangements with ATC.
 
DC? Yikes.. I avoid them by several hundred miles...

I might have missed the DC part of the thread too. :)
 
Ed Guthrie said:
Or better yet "Observed discrepancy between ATC radar plotted and charted airspace boundaries". It is a known problem. ATC radar depicts the Class B space with somewhat error prone boundaries. If you fly just outside (i.e. one wing span outside) the visual landmarks ATC will bark frequently. Quite possible that you were indeed outside, not that it will matter if the enforcement starts as ATC radar will rule.
Click to expand...

I am curious what you are basing your statement of atc radar plotted and charted airspace boundaries have discrepancies. I would have to disagree. I am an Air traffic controller and a Safety assurance specialist. I am the one that gets to do the evaluation and paperwork when we have a pilot deviation. The Radar and boundaries are right on.
 
AirBaker said:
Not that I'm going to tempt fate myself, but your GPS is way more accurate than their radar. Last I heard there was about a 1/4 mile resolution on radar.
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I believe Approach radar is better than that. Maybe not what they see on the scope by default, but you can switch the same scope to ASR mode, which I imagine would easily resolve much better than 1/4 mile. Therefore, I would expect their radar track data to be quite accurate, at least as far as Tracons go.

-Felix
 
Airspace is drawn on the chart as circles. The last time I was up was for my BFR, and the CFI and I noted that the airspace boundaries drawn on the GNS 430 were short straight lines approximating a circle.

The difference between a true circle and the GNS 430 "circle" is small, probably measured in hundreds of feet at the maximum (that's a guess). But it underscores the point that what you see on your GPS box is not exactly the boundary.

Don't fly it that close!

-Skip
 
Ron Levy said:
Unfortunately, their radar is the standard by which you are judged. So for me, it's a 5-mile buffer around the ADIZ unless I'm with them on an assigned squawk.
Click to expand...

What Ron said - at a TRACON tour yesterday, the controller who works ADIZ security told us that he understands that you can't receive the DCA VOR DME down below the Class B, and he understands that our GPS is more accurate than their radar, but the bottom line is that when the blip is inside the ring mapped on their screen, they have to initiate the enforcement process. The DOD/DHS agencies also are monitoring this airspace and THEY will initiate a violation if the FAA doesn't.

The same thing applied to other airspace too (though ATC has more discretion about filing a deviation), so give yourself distance around airspace you're not supposed to be in. Until we get ADS-B where everyone involved is using your GPS lat/long for plotting, there will be discrepancies between the radar and your GPS.
 
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Wow, talk about resurrecting an old thread... and it sounds like an "official" FAA person is doing it. Goes right back to what people have told us... be careful what you post!
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Wow, talk about resurrecting an old thread... and it sounds like an "official" FAA person is doing it. Goes right back to what people have told us... be careful what you post!
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The person resurrecting appears to be Air Traffic, not Flight Standards, and is giving us a nice insider view of the situation from that perspective.
 
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