Cleared into class C or not?

gibbons

gibbons

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The other day I was on the ground at my non-towered home airport. Although my airport is not in class C, it does underlie the outer ring and is very close to the inner ring.

My intended VFR flight path would take me through class C airspace about 30 seconds after my departure. So I called clearance delivery on the ground, gave them my intended heading and altitude, and was given the following clearance (or something close): "N69LW, squawk 4325 and contact Razorback Approach on 120.0 after departure." No heading or altitude restriction were given, and I was not told to remain clear of Class C airspace.

Immediately after departure I switched to 120.0 and couldn't get in. I waited for the frequency to clear but it didn't. So I was faced with a question.... had I been cleared into class C airspace or not?

My thought was that I had been since I had established two way communication with the controlling agency and they had recognized me by my n-number. But I've learned that thinking I'm right and proving I'm right aren't the same thing, so I circled over the airport until I could finally break in and went on my way.

Tonight at an airport meeting we had a representative from Razorback Approach give a presentation. I told him this story and asked him, along with a room full of CFI's, what they thought. But before I give you their responses and reasons, what do you think? Was I cleared into Class C or not?
 
I'm gonna throw it out there and say, "yes," because they had already assigned you a squawk code and you were, therefore, identified to them.

But that's SWAG.

Wud he say?
 
gibbons said:
Immediately after departure I switched to 120.0 and couldn't get in. I waited for the frequency to clear but it didn't. So I was faced with a question.... had I been cleared into class C airspace or not?

My thought was that I had been since I had established two way communication with the controlling agency and they had recognized me by my n-number. But I've learned that thinking I'm right and proving I'm right aren't the same thing, so I circled over the airport until I could finally break in and went on my way.

Tonight at an airport meeting we had a representative from Razorback Approach give a presentation. I told him this story and asked him, along with a room full of CFI's, what they thought. But before I give you their responses and reasons, what do you think? Was I cleared into Class C or not?
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Not.
§ 91.130 Operations in Class C airspace.

(c) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class C airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements:

(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.


You are outside (prior to entry) and you haven't established/maintained communications. JMO, YMMV and your opiinion is as valid/no more valid than mine. IOW, without a legal opinion we are splitting hairs and arguing angel pointed object real estate.
 
gibbons said:
. So I called clearance delivery on the ground, gave them my intended heading and altitude, and was given the following clearance (or something close): "N69LW, squawk 4325 and contact Razorback Approach on 120.0 after departure."
Was I cleared into Class C or not?
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\

Yes, if this "call" was made on the com radio. By definition this is two way communication. Once they respond with your tail number you are cleared into class c, unlike class b when you have to hear the magic words....cleared into class bravo.
 
Steve said:
I'd say if you didn't establish 2-way comm with the controlling agency the answer is "no" (Clearance delivery and TRACON ain't necessarily the same guy).
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I sure wouldn't go in there. Not on my ticket. Nossir. When they play the tapes on the inner frequency (tower) do you think they will hear your voice? Nope!

Now, they may not enforce- particularly if the AppCon guy is sitting right next to the Tower guy- but in our place (Class C overlying) they are two floors apart.
 
IF clearance delivery is (as many of the RCO CD's are) operated by the appropriate ATC controller, I say yes, you would be OK. It's like asking to go off frequency for a minute.

If CD is somebody else, then I'd say Ed is more likely to be correct.

Example: Twin Oaks (T94) is inside the inner ring of the SAT Class C. Procedure is to contact SAT CD before departure. That clearance is sufficient to let you into the Class C, if you go over to tower after departure. (The FAA has released a letter to pilots on departure procedures).
 
Both Bruce and Bill's Post has me confused. What has tower got to do with any of this? Would'nt you be contacting departure? This guy is in the radar room seperate from the tower cab. You have contacted clearance delevery. That is part of ATC is it not?
 
Chip:

It sounds to me that you never got two way com on the frequency that controlled the Class C. Sounds as if you did your CATF stuff to depart and couldn't get on with the approach controller. In that case, I wouldn't be going into that space. If I'm reading things incorrectly, please let me know.

Best,

Dave
 
KD, my comment was this.

At some airports (I can think of several), the clearance delivery frequency is operated by the same controller who handles the overlying airspace. It's that way at Olive Branch, MS (Memphis), for example.

T94 lies well within the inner ring of the SAT Class C. You have to contact clearance before takeoff because, well, you're already in the class C.

If I didn't know - like Chip didn't know - I'd do exactly what he did. Stay out until I had contact with the controller of that sector. Bruce's comment explains why: clearance and approach are in different places.
 
wsuffa said:
KD, my comment was this.

At some airports (I can think of several), the clearance delivery frequency is operated by the same controller who handles the overlying airspace. It's that way at Olive Branch, MS (Memphis), for example.

T94 lies well within the inner ring of the SAT Class C. You have to contact clearance before takeoff because, well, you're already in the class C.

If I didn't know - like Chip didn't know - I'd do exactly what he did. Stay out until I had contact with the controller of that sector. Bruce's comment explains why: clearance and approach are in different places.
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I under stand all of the above, just that tower was mentioned, that was the confusing part,
Absolutely, when in doubt the prudent thing to do would to remain clear of classC.
 
I just called our local Tracon and posed the exact question to a controller between shifts (if, after getting code and fqy on the ground with CD, and we depart towards CCA, can we enter if we have not been able to talk to AppCon).
The answer was a definite 'No, do not enter, the regs state you have to have rdo ctc with AppCon beforehand'.
Good question Chip.
the Tracon I called was 432 488 2000

I think the difference, which understandably gets blurred, is departing ifr with a clearance and release, you have already established contact and can go into cca.
 
Steve said:
I'd say if you didn't establish 2-way comm with the controlling agency the answer is "no" (Clearance delivery and TRACON ain't necessarily the same guy).
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In this case, they were exactly the same guy. Our airport has a remote transmit/receive on the field that goes directly to Razorback Approach. The guy who gave me the clearance was the guy I finally talked to on approach.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I just called our local Tracon and posed the exact question to a controller between shifts (if, after getting code and fqy on the ground with CD, and we depart towards CCA, can we enter if we have not been able to talk to AppCon).
The answer was a definite 'No, do not enter, the regs state you have to have rdo ctc with AppCon beforehand'.
Good question Chip.
the Tracon I called was 432 488 2000

I think the difference, which understandably gets blurred, is departing ifr with a clearance and release, you have already established contact and can go into cca.
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ding, ding, ding, ding.....

Although you don't get any points because you cheated and asked a controller.

I don't know if it's right or not but here's what we discussed:

All of the CFI's had the same opinion. You were OK to enter but you did the right thing by not entering since you weren't sure. Some said they would have done the same thing, others said they would have continued on course.

The controller was adamant that I was not cleared into class C. His reasoning is that the clearance delivery position is not a controlling position unless the flight is, as Dave points out, IFR. Anyway, he said if he were working the board and I had entered class C, he would have violated me.

Better safe than sorry huh?
 
gibbons said:
Although you don't get any points because you cheated and asked a controller.
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cheating?! That's using 'all available resources'! CRM = (kitchen) Countertop Resource Mismanagement.

I called because it looked like we were had plenty of opinions but no higher source (lets have a poll and see how many think a controller knows the correct interpretation of the fars!) :rofl:

Anyway, good choice... during the 'blurring' you can get to thinking one way (hey, Im cleared!) and forget you are on vfr rules.
 
Chip, JOOC why didn't you ask clearance if it was OK to proceed into the Class C before establishing comm with approach? I can see why the controller wouldn't consider you cleared in. Just because he gave you a code, doesn't mean you've taken off, they do that so you both won't have to waste time on the radio with squawk codes in the air.
 
lancefisher said:
Chip, JOOC why didn't you ask clearance if it was OK to proceed into the Class C before establishing comm with approach? I can see why the controller wouldn't consider you cleared in. Just because he gave you a code, doesn't mean you've taken off, they do that so you both won't have to waste time on the radio with squawk codes in the air.
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Good point Lance. This will become more important in a few weeks. Notice on the chart attachment below, my airport is the one I've colored bright red.
1) We're under the class C outer ring.
2) The inner ring is 3.3 NM straight off of a runway 18 departure and is less than one mile to the west.
3) To the southeast is Class D airspace at FYV.
4) The current class E airspace to our immediate east (Rogers) goes class D in about two weeks, and they're moving the airspace closer to our airport so we'll have class D about 2.5 NM to our east.

(On a side note, the tower there has been operational for about a month and everyone thought it was class D already. There have even been some violations written up. But the paperwork got lost somewhere at the FAA and the airspace was never reclassified, so we have a tower in class E airspace and the violations are being trashed.)

So, to your point Lance, I'll be asking for clearance into class C or D from the ground.

Here's my next question:

I'm on the ground at Little Rock, AR - the center of the class C airspace. I call clearance delivery on the field and tell them I'm VFR on a 325 degree heading out of their area at 6,500'. I get the clearance: "Upon departure, turn left to 275 degrees, maintain at or below 3,000', departure frequency 119.5."

Upon departure I'm with the tower and make my left turn. The tower is busy and doesn't hand me off to departure until I'm well clear of the class D airspace (inside class C). I have not spoken to the controlling facility yet (since the clearance delivery guy doesn't count if VFR) so it seems to me that I've busted class C. This has actually happened several times. I suppose the fact that I started inside class C (although it was actually class D) makes some kind of difference? Just thinking out loud here. (I can't believe I woke up about 2:00 this morning thinking about this. I need a life.)
 
gibbons said:
Upon departure I'm with the tower and make my left turn. The tower is busy and doesn't hand me off to departure until I'm well clear of the class D airspace (inside class C). I have not spoken to the controlling facility yet (since the clearance delivery guy doesn't count if VFR) so it seems to me that I've busted class C.
Click to expand...

Might be time to have a conference call with the two facilities' managers?
 
gibbons said:
Good point Lance. This will become more important in a few weeks. Notice on the chart attachment below, my airport is the one I've colored bright red.
1) We're under the class C outer ring.
2) The inner ring is 3.3 NM straight off of a runway 18 departure and is less than one mile to the west.
3) To the southeast is Class D airspace at FYV.
4) The current class E airspace to our immediate east (Rogers) goes class D in about two weeks, and they're moving the airspace closer to our airport so we'll have class D about 2.5 NM to our east.

(On a side note, the tower there has been operational for about a month and everyone thought it was class D already. There have even been some violations written up. But the paperwork got lost somewhere at the FAA and the airspace was never reclassified, so we have a tower in class E airspace and the violations are being trashed.)

So, to your point Lance, I'll be asking for clearance into class C or D from the ground.

Here's my next question:

I'm on the ground at Little Rock, AR - the center of the class C airspace. I call clearance delivery on the field and tell them I'm VFR on a 325 degree heading out of their area at 6,500'. I get the clearance: "Upon departure, turn left to 275 degrees, maintain at or below 3,000', departure frequency 119.5."

Upon departure I'm with the tower and make my left turn. The tower is busy and doesn't hand me off to departure until I'm well clear of the class D airspace (inside class C). I have not spoken to the controlling facility yet (since the clearance delivery guy doesn't count if VFR) so it seems to me that I've busted class C. This has actually happened several times. I suppose the fact that I started inside class C (although it was actually class D) makes some kind of difference? Just thinking out loud here. (I can't believe I woke up about 2:00 this morning thinking about this. I need a life.)
Click to expand...

I could be wrong as I have precious little Class C experience, but AFaIK there is no Class D inside the Class C for the airport in the center, tower or not. If that is indeed the case, I would maintain that you are properly in communication with the ATC facility exercising control in the situation you presented.
 
lancefisher said:
I could be wrong as I have precious little Class C experience, but AFaIK there is no Class D inside the Class C for the airport in the center, tower or not. If that is indeed the case, I would maintain that you are properly in communication with the ATC facility exercising control in the situation you presented.
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I think you're correct.
 
Chip:

We're a Class D airport under Class B here at Addison. We've had several occassions where tower and told us to fly in a direction that put us in Class B without clearing us into Class B. We had many meetings with different folks. Spat between Approach and our tower lead to the problem.

Tower is supposed to coordinate with Class B (or C) for your transition if their actions put you in that other airspace. Sometimes there are letter agreements between facilities. The pilot just can't know all the technicalities of all these agreements unless it's the home field.

The situation you describe should not be a problem. If tower put you there, and it's on tape, you are following the directions of a controller. I've encountered several instances like this and never had a problem.

Did have one tower ask me while taxiing why I didn't call before entering the Class D. Told them Tampa Approach turned me over to tower when I had called. They went nuts--but at Tampa. Said they Tampa had been doing it over and over. The two facilities should be coordinating.

Best,

Dave
 
Hmmm...interesting. I've gotten VFR clearance into Class D (same requirements as C) over the phone. (I had a bad PTT, thought it was the transmitter, and didn't think to check my hand mic. Anyway...) I landed at 3GM before getting into MKG's airspace. I called the tower, told them the situation, told them I could hear them, but couldn't transmit, and would rock wings, or flash my landing light, or do a transpoder IDENT if when I heard and could comply with instructions. Got the squawk code over the phone, and all went w/o a hitch.

No two way radio communication established.
 
N2212R said:
...I called the tower, told them the situation, told them I could hear them, but couldn't transmit, and would rock wings, or flash my landing light, or do a transpoder IDENT if when I heard and could comply with instructions. Got the squawk code over the phone, and all went w/o a hitch.

No two way radio communication established.
Click to expand...

§ 91.130 Operations in Class C airspace.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC...


You were "otherwise authorized" but Chip was not.
 
I wonder what would happen if you happened to call Razorback Approach prior to takeoff, rather than CD.

I have similar issues here at Double Eagle. Departing on 17 puts you into Albuquerque's airpspace, if you find yourself climbing above 1100' AGL. (6900').

I usually have the Albuquerque VOR tuned in, and make an upwind departure, with a right turn out. As soon as the VOR lines up at 170, I know I'm safe to climb above 6900.

I've never tried calling Albuquerque Approach before takeoff tho.
 
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Minor technicality. It's not a "clearance" into the Class C. It is for a Class B.

The rule does not require clearance, it requires communication.

Minor nit, but one just the same.
 
cherokeeflyboy said:
\

Yes, if this "call" was made on the com radio. By definition this is two way communication. Once they respond with your tail number you are cleared into class c, unlike class b when you have to hear the magic words....cleared into class bravo.
Click to expand...

I've always been told it's a one-way communication until they respond with your N-number. In this case I would say no, you weren't cleared into Charlie...

Here at RHV, you've only got about 10-15 seconds before busting into SJC's class C.
 
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