Cleared into Class B airspace

flykelley

flykelley

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flykelley
Hi Gang
I fly out of KPTK, north of Detroit. On a IFR flight plan Detroit will not route you through their airspace, they will always take you to either the East or west side of Class B airspace. On two recent flights I had Chicago Center fly me through their airspace on a IFR flight plan but never heard the words cleared into Class Bravo airspace. Had the same thing with Cleveland center, most time's I'm not flying into or close to Class B airspace so I never have to worry about this words. I even asked Chicago Center that my course and altitude would take me into their airspace and the reply was you are ok. So while on a IFR flight plan do you still need to hear those magic word's, Cleared into Class Bravo airspace? In both cases this week I was flying into a airport under the class bravo outer ring.

Mike
 
Class B airspace requiers a clearance.
Your IFR cleared route that takes you into the class B is such a clearance.
It's the VFR pilots that need to hear the explicit class B clearance.
 
Don't need to hear those magic words when IFR.

I'm unfamiliar with Chicago, but surprised that Center controls any Bravo airspace, I thought usually that belonged to Approach?
 
pericynthion said:
Don't need to hear those magic words when IFR.

I'm unfamiliar with Chicago, but surprised that Center controls any Bravo airspace, I thought usually that belonged to Approach?
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You are correct I was talking to Chicago Approach on the way in and Departure on the way out. I was talking to Center when they put me over the Lake, when I got into Class Bravo airspace they handed me off to approach while I was inbound.

Mike
 
I'm pretty sure most places 'approach' and 'departure' are the same person on the same freq. It's just a guy controlling airspace and sequencing planes. I think using the term approach and departure on call up just tell the controller which way you're going in an easy way right up front.
 
Captain said:
I'm pretty sure most places 'approach' and 'departure' are the same person on the same freq. It's just a guy controlling airspace and sequencing planes. I think using the term approach and departure on call up just tell the controller which way you're going in an easy way right up front.
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It depends on the specific airspace and runway configuration. Boston has an initial departure (ID) sector (133.0) that is primarily departures only though some arrivals fly through the ID sector's airspace. All the major NY airports also have departure sectors that, unless combined, mainly handle departures. Same facility, different controller.
 
you have experienced one of the perks of flying IFR.. airspace is of no concern and it is up to ATC to route you and coordinate hand offs with center, to terminal controllers etc... just "file, fly and comply" (with instructions)

VFR flight following they will typically coordinate this stuff for you but they are not obligated and occasionally you will just get dumped with no hand off or class B clearance and you must coordinate that on your own.
 
I would agree with one exception. The airspace below class B has a 200 knot speed limit and for some reason that applies to IFR traffic as well. It's a major pain as many IFR operators dont even carry sectionals and the class B depiction on IFR lows is very limited.

If there was any one rule I could change myself it would be that 200 knot under B would only apply to VFR.
 
The whole point of the rule is to slow everyone down to speeds where "see and avoid" just barely might be possible.

400 knots closure means you have very little time from "see" to "avoid".

You have just barely over one minute at 7 nm to see, recognize, and react to a head on with zero relative motion, just a dot getting larger.

I can't believe an airline Captain doesn't recognize this is the whole point of the rule in congested airspace.
 
denverpilot said:
The whole point of the rule is to slow everyone down to speeds where "see and avoid" just barely might be possible.

400 knots closure means you have very little time from "see" to "avoid".

You have just barely over one minute at 7 nm to see, recognize, and react to a head on with zero relative motion, just a dot getting larger.

I can't believe an airline Captain doesn't recognize this is the whole point of the rule in congested airspace.
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In class b airspace even vfr traffic is under positive control by atc and theoretically there should be no issues with fast traffic if handled properly by atc
 
Plus, there's a 30nm xponder ring. My TCAS will pick up any VFR traffic.
 
Captain said:
Except it's wrong. I can't believe someone of your experience didn't know that.
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You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.

By letter of the law, you are correct. But since MOST class B airspace is below 10,000 feet, where the 250 speed limit DOES apply, it is sort of a difference without distinction.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.

By letter of the law, you are correct. But since MOST class B airspace is below 10,000 feet, where the 250 speed limit DOES apply, it is sort of a difference without distinction.
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We have two significant Class C areas that underlie the Los Angeles Class B airspace. Many pilots, including air carrier pilots, miss the absolute 200 KIAS speed limit in those areas.
 
Captain said:
Plus, there's a 30nm xponder ring. My TCAS will pick up any VFR traffic.
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Except, of course, for the VFR traffic that is operating without a transponder:

91.215 (b)(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon or glider may conduct operations in the airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part provided such operations are conducted...
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You can also get in and out of the ring without a transponder providing you have ATC approval (BTDT).
 
aterpster said:
We have two significant Class C areas that underlie the Los Angeles Class B airspace. Many pilots, including air carrier pilots, miss the absolute 200 KIAS speed limit in those areas.
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This is true. But all those airline guys are IFR and Approach, as a rule, doesn't inform you when they descend you below the B and you clip some C. As if said before, most (121) operators do not carry sectionals and the IFR low charts have a very limited representation of B and C airspace, so the crew has no practical way to even know they are in the C.

That's the main reason I wish the speed limit only applied to VFR. The IFR traffic is in direct communication with ATC and ATC can assign any speed they want. It's been my observation that ATC doesn't want you to slow, they want you out of their airspace as quickly as possible (most times, speration permitting). I've even heard ATC call it a stupid rule on the radio.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Except, of course, for the VFR traffic that is operating without a transponder:



You can also get in and out of the ring without a transponder providing you have ATC approval (BTDT).
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I know this can be done and have heard such ops on the radio. I've never been forced into this situation (yet). Is two way comms with ATC a requirement of the waiver / approval?
 
Greg Bockelman said:
By letter of the law, you are correct. But since MOST class B airspace is below 10,000 feet, where the 250 speed limit DOES apply, it is sort of a difference without distinction.
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Unless I've failed in my research, Denver is the only one that goes above 10,000 -- even Salt Lake only goes to 10,000. But it's still probably a good test question.
 
Captain said:
This is true. But all those airline guys are IFR and Approach, as a rule, doesn't inform you when they descend you below the B and you clip some C.
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ATC is required to inform large aircraft if they depart the B-space, and again on re-entry. If they're not doing that, they're not doing their job by the book.
 
Captain said:
I know this can be done and have heard such ops on the radio. I've never been forced into this situation (yet). Is two way comms with ATC a requirement of the waiver / approval?
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The note on the TAC says "unless otherwise authorized..." But, would they authorize? Dunno.

I suspect it's whatever you can negotiate over the phone ahead of time. I was told to call them up outside the ring, and after takeoff when I flew out. They made it real clear that I was to stay outside the class B and not to cross over into Canada. When I flew in to ONZ from the south, Detroit did not have me on radar as a primary return (I was about 1000 AGL) and they picked me up somewhere around Monroe - so lack of radar contact did not seem to be a deal breaker.

For the "Ain't never had no electrical system" exception, it didn't appear (from the regulation) that you need to be in contact - but I didn't read the whole thing carefully.
 
Ron Levy said:
ATC is required to inform large aircraft if they depart the B-space, and again on re-entry. If they're not doing that, they're not doing their job by the book.
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That requirement applies to all aircraft.
 
I wonder if approach could descend you below the B and not notify you and then the FAA could violate you for busting 200 kts?
 
Ron Levy said:
Unless I've failed in my research, Denver is the only one that goes above 10,000 -- even Salt Lake only goes to 10,000. But it's still probably a good test question.
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Ron, as pericynthion linked, Atlanta goes up to 12,500 (why?), and Dallas goes up to 11,000 in addition to Denver's 12,000.
 
Captain said:
I wonder if approach could descend you below the B and not notify you and then the FAA could violate you for busting 200 kts?
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From this board a few weeks back: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-47827.html

FAA Order JO 7110.65, Subject: Air Traffic Control includes the requirement for controllers to “Vector aircraft to remain in Class B airspace after entry. Inform the aircraft when leaving and reentering the Class B airspace if it becomes necessary to extend the flight path outside Class B airspace for spacing”.
Aircraft on an IFR Flight Plan will be informed when leaving Class B airspace and when reentering Class B airspace. An example of phraseology the crew may expect is, “aircraft ID, fly heading 120, descend and maintain 4000 feet, leaving Class B airspace” and “aircraft ID, fly heading 180, entering Class B airspace”.
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(2) Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each person operating a large turbine engine-powered airplane to or from a primary airport for which a Class B airspace area is designated must operate at or above the designated floors of the Class B airspace area while within the lateral limits of that area.
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While as noted in the other thread this only applies to 12,500lb+ turbine aircraft, they do compose the majority of 200kt+ at low altitude aircraft.
 
FlySince9 said:
Oh boy, here we go again!
:popcorn:
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I don't think we're going anywhere. I don't know the answer here. If I don't know something I have no problem saying so. If I do know something I don't pretend I'm wrong to satisfy egos.
 
Mike I said:
Ron, as pericynthion linked, Atlanta goes up to 12,500 (why?), and Dallas goes up to 11,000 in addition to Denver's 12,000.
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San Diego was initially 12,500 then lowered because GA aviation groups are quite well organized in Southern California.

Class B rule-making takes on the flavor of the regional FAA office to which the airspace belongs.

Additionally, well-written comments to an NPRM can, and often do, make a difference.
 
Captain said:
This is true. But all those airline guys are IFR and Approach, as a rule, doesn't inform you when they descend you below the B and you clip some C. As if said before, most (121) operators do not carry sectionals and the IFR low charts have a very limited representation of B and C airspace, so the crew has no practical way to even know they are in the C.
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It is primarily an issue of departing, not descending.

Check the area west of KONT and KCNO where air carrier and biz jets are headed west, then north over POM VOR. That airspace clearly shows up on a G-1000 MFD map. Also, check the area southwest of KSNA.

Further, although air carrier pilots don't carry sectionals, their flight ops regulatory experts should (including TACs), especially for areas where the airspeed violations occur regularly on a strategic rather than tactical basis.
 
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