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Tom-D

Tom-D

Taxi to Parking
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Tom-D
Joe sells an aircraft to Pete in 1964, Pete never sends in the bill of sale, Pete never applies for a registration, places the aircraft in storage until he sells the aircraft, he then gives the new owner a bill of sale, which is sent in to the FAA. The new buyer sends his bill of sale in to the FAA along with a application for registration.

It's now 2013 and the FAA will not issue the new owner a registration. So what now? Joe and Pete are both deceased.

how would you unscrew this mess?

the missing link is the bill of sale from Joe to Pete. the new owner has a bill of sale from Pete to them.
 
OMG, that doesn't sound like a lot of fun. I am assuming you are new owner and you are talking about the 170.
 
I would start by asking the FAA what documentation would be required to register the aircraft in the new owners name.
 
Go to a junk yard. Buy a similar plane from the salvage company. "Rebuild" the plane by attaching all the parts of the previous plane to the data plate of the wrecked plane.
 
Call your friend at the escrow company that you use for closing airplane deals and ask her how to handle it. She'll have it done by closing time today.
 
This problem came up while a friend was applying for title on a Fairchild. I think it came down to sending registered letters to last know addresses of all involved, in his case they came back un-opened and the FAA then allowed him to proceed.
 
wabower said:
Call your friend at the escrow company that you use for closing airplane deals and ask her how to handle it. She'll have it done by closing time today.
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Won't be that quick. The first thing that will have to be established is that Pete owned the plane, and that will involve the executor of Joe's estate, since Pete cannot sell what he does not legally own. Pete's executor may have to be involved, too, since Pete is no longer able to establish his ownership once the bill of sale from Joe's estate is executed before selling it to the new owner. This is one of those situations where the only winners are the attorneys handling the problem, and a title search before sale saves the prospective buyer a lot of headaches (not to mention money). In any event, the new owner is going to need a lawyer who knows this business.
 
wabower said:
Call your friend at the escrow company that you use for closing airplane deals and ask her how to handle it. She'll have it done by closing time today.
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In work. They dropped the ball and the new owner may try getting his money back.
 
Ron Levy said:
Won't be that quick. The first thing that will have to be established is that Pete owned the plane, and that will involve the executor of Joe's estate, since Pete cannot sell what he does not legally own. Pete's executor may have to be involved, too, since Pete is no longer able to establish his ownership once the bill of sale from Joe's estate is executed before selling it to the new owner. This is one of those situations where the only winners are the attorneys handling the problem, and a title search before sale saves the prospective buyer a lot of headaches (not to mention money). In any event, the new owner is going to need a lawyer who knows this business.
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I was amazed to find out how many planes have outstanding liens on them, some 30-40 years old, one plane I looked at had SIX.
 
bartmc said:
I was amazed to find out how many planes have outstanding liens on them, some 30-40 years old, one plane I looked at had SIX.
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The only ones that count are the ones filed at the FAA.
 
Tom-D said:
In work. They dropped the ball and the new owner may try getting his money back.
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You're saying the buyer has title insurance from the escrow company and the escrow company/insurer failed to conduct a title search? Thanks for that new information. That makes it the escrow/title insurer's problem, not the new buyers. It ensures the buyer won't be out anything, but it it may mean the buyer will have to take his/her money back from the escrow company instead of getting the plane if the escrow company can't get either the executor of Joe's estate or a court to cooperate.
 
Ron Levy said:
You're saying the buyer has title insurance from the escrow company and the escrow company/insurer failed to conduct a title search? Thanks for that new information. That makes it the escrow/title insurer's problem, not the new buyers. It ensures the buyer won't be out anything, but it it may mean the buyer will have to take his/her money back from the escrow company instead of getting the plane if the escrow company can't get either the executor of Joe's estate or a court to cooperate.
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My info is based upon a phone call, I really don't know what the deal is with the title company, as far as his recourse with them. I'd have to read the agreement.

the new owner really does want to keep the aircraft. getting it fixed is the preferred method.
 
bartmc said:
That's where these were, I wasn't aware they could be anywhere else. They were all banks that were lazy with their paperwork.
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you can register liens at the state and county level. but those are usually land titles, because the land is titled by the state and county.
 
Sometimes it can be your own plane. How many owners check the FAA registry to determine whether a bank files a lien release when you pay off your note? I didn't. Nineteen years later we found the mistake.

bartmc said:
I was amazed to find out how many planes have outstanding liens on them, some 30-40 years old, one plane I looked at had SIX.
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Good to hear it isn't you. The way your post started I thought you were having an issue.
 
tmyers said:
Good to hear it isn't you. The way your post started I thought you were having an issue.
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Ya gotta read what is written, and not allow your imagination run wild.
 
SCCutler said:
Get the executor of joe's estate to sign a quitclaim deed. If no such person can be found, a simple suit to try title.
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Didn't Pete drop the ball? he never sent in the bill of sale which would have eliminated this problem.

didn't he actually sell an aircraft that did not belong to him?
( in as far as the FAA is concerned)
 
It's Sunday night and I have work tomorrow, a wild imagination is exactly what I need. Have a great New Years!!!
 
Anymouse said:
Go to a junk yard. Buy a similar plane from the salvage company. "Rebuild" the plane by attaching all the parts of the previous plane to the data plate of the wrecked plane.
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Sounds like the best advice I've heard all day.
 
A little clarification.

The liens exist, to the extent they exist, by virtue of state law; the FAA is simply a central registry for the liens. A plane can have a dozen liens on file, but if they are not enforceable under the laws of the respective states in which they were originally created, they matter not.

Also, if you have a Bill of Sale from Pete to Buyer, when nd if the conveyance from Joe to Pete is obtained (by whatever means), the conveyance from Pete to Buyer becomes effective, by the doctrine of "merger."
 
Why Not simply dummy up a bill of sale and send it in.... " "" Oh Look what we found"'"
 
Tom-D said:
you can register liens at the state and county level. but those are usually land titles, because the land is titled by the state and county.
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You can register an aircraft lien anywhere you want, but the lien will not be perfectable unless you file it with the FAA.
 
Since we're picking nits, I'll add this: you can perfect a lien against an aircraft by physically possessing it, in which event you have a valid right against the aircraft (presuming, of course, the underlying obligation/debt is valid).

What recording the lien with the FAA achieves is to create a chain of title which cannot be altered without proving release or unenforceability of all prior-recorded liens.

It is easier to deal with eliminating an old mechanics' lien, as they typically must be enforced within a limited period of time (often two years), or they cease to exist by operation of law.

And old secured instrument (loan) filing can also become unenforceable because of the secured party's (bank's) failure to file suit to enforce and foreclose before the statute of limitations for the state whose law controls expires.
 
SCCutler said:
Since we're picking nits, I'll add this: you can perfect a lien against an aircraft by physically possessing it, in which event you have a valid right against the aircraft (presuming, of course, the underlying obligation/debt is valid).
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Presuming also that your state law allows possessory liens in whatever circumstance exists and you are already in possession of the item. Hangarkeepers, mechanics, and others have such power under many states' laws, but don't push it too far or you could be facing criminal charges. Seems to me there was a case where an FBO towed a plane off the public ramp into its hangar over an outstanding repair bill, and the FBO owner got arrested for grand theft airplane.

In any event, Tom's original case is going to need legal assistance to sort it out unless the buyer is willing to accept his/her money back from the escrow/title company in place of the airplane.
 
Tom-D said:
Why Not simply dummy up a bill of sale and send it in.... " "" Oh Look what we found"'"
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I can't speak about aviation, but in international trade, this happens more often than many would like to believe in situations not as old, and with some fairly large transactions.

It's not my reputation on the line, but, if..
-They are both deceased
-All the evidence you have doesn't feel suspicious
-You feel that all the information you have is true and correct
-You're not trying to change, alter, or deceive, only to circumvent bureaucracy and red tape

...then I would find this bill of sale and send it in.
 
bartmc said:
That's where these were, I wasn't aware they could be anywhere else. They were all banks that were lazy with their paperwork.
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Technically, the only binding ones are filed with the FAA. That doesn't mean an idiot mechanic can't try putting a local mechanics lien on one.
 
Isn't a dead man's signature invalid without witnesses or other authentication, such as those found in wills?

TheTraveler said:
I can't speak about aviation, but in international trade, this happens more often than many would like to believe in situations not as old, and with some fairly large transactions.

It's not my reputation on the line, but, if..
-They are both deceased
-All the evidence you have doesn't feel suspicious
-You feel that all the information you have is true and correct
-You're not trying to change, alter, or deceive, only to circumvent bureaucracy and red tape

...then I would find this bill of sale and send it in.
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wabower said:
Isn't a dead man's signature invalid without witnesses or other authentication, such as those found in wills?
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Not if he signed before he died.

It would be a "Look what we found" not a "Look what we did". Follow?

True story: Full container of motorcycles going to Argentina from the USA. The buyer (owner of the business) dies before the container makes port.

The motorcycles belong to his business free and clear: they paid in advance via wire transfer, paid the shipping line for transportation, everything. Only he didn't sign the documents before he died, so legally they couldn't be imported.

There were two choices..."find" a signed copy of the documents from sometime last month, or the country of Argentina confiscates the entire container and auctions it off as state goods.

Luckily a copy of the "signed" documents were found, the container made port, was imported, and the product went to the business. End of story.

Edit: Forgot to add...these types of things don't usually follow in the same realm as estates and wills, as long as they took place prior. I'm no lawyer, but I've had my share of this in the past, and I'm just speaking from experience.
 
How would you propose to get him to sign after he died?

TheTraveler said:
Not if he signed before he died.

It would be a "Look what we found" not a "Look what we did". Follow?

True story: Full container of motorcycles going to Argentina from the USA. The buyer (owner of the business) dies before the container makes port.

The motorcycles belong to his business free and clear: they paid in advance via wire transfer, paid the shipping line for transportation, everything. Only he didn't sign the documents before he died, so legally they couldn't be imported.

There were two choices..."find" a signed copy of the documents from sometime last month, or the country of Argentina confiscates the entire container and auctions it off as state goods.

Luckily a copy of the "signed" documents were found, the container made port, was imported, and the product went to the business. End of story.

Edit: Forgot to add...these types of things don't usually follow in the same realm as estates and wills, as long as they took place prior. I'm no lawyer, but I've had my share of this in the past, and I'm just speaking from experience.
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TheTraveler said:
I wouldn't. I would just recommend finding a copy that he signed before he died.
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I would do my home work on the vintage of the FAA's bill of sales, there may be an updated version, from the one Joe would have signed.

Wouldn't it look a little suspicious if he signed a bill of sale form that did not exist prior his death?
 
Tom-D said:
I would do my home work on the vintage of the FAA's bill of sales, there may be an updated version, from the one Joe would have signed.

Wouldn't it look a little suspicious if he signed a bill of sale form that did not exist prior his death?
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Yes, absolutely.

Again, not with aviation specifically, but bills of sale come in many different shapes, sizes, and variations. I've found that one agency to the next doesn't really care what it looks like, as long as the important information is there. And in this case, that it was historically fitting.

Paper, font, date, and typeset would be important considerations. I've seen US customs accept handwritten documents before.
 
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