Clear of the runway

[gibbons]

I was taught an aircraft exiting a runway (or crossing a runway) is clear of the runway when all parts of the aircraft have crossed the hold short line.

I was studying for the II one night and came across the term in the Pilot/Controller Glossary. "A pilot or controller may consider an aircraft, which is exiting or crossing a runway, to be clear of the runway when all parts of the aircraft are beyond the runway edge and there are no restrictions to its continued movement beyond the applicable runway holding position marking."

The definition was marked as a change so I went back to the 2007 version. The only change is that the older version says, "..and there is no ATC restriction to its continued movement..."

I'm embarrassed that I didn't know this, and am posting here because the five experienced pilots I asked all thought the correct answer was "after the aircraft has crossed the hold short line", so I'm not the only one. Was this a change from the definition I thought was correct, or was I always wrong about this? If it was changed, any idea when?

 

[ScottM]

I thought it was hold short line as well.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

All parts across the hold short line is the more conservative. At UAL, we are not considered clear until all parts ARE across the hold line. Wingspan on a 747 is pretty impressive.

In other words, what I consider clear, and what ATC considers clear may not be the same, but mine is more conservative.

 

[KennyFlys]

All parts across the hold short line is the more conservative. At UAL, we are not considered clear until all parts ARE across the hold line. Wingspan on a 747 is pretty impressive.

In other words, what I consider clear, and what ATC considers clear may not be the same, but mine is more conservative.

I like the conservative route.

At PDK, they sometimes have you hold on a short taxiway between the parallels after landing. There's not much room there at all and it makes me somewhat nervous, particularly if there is a bizjet on final after me. But, as long as I know I'm almost nose up on the one line, I'm well clear of the other runway. If there were strong gusts, I'd prefer not to hold in that position.

 

[Danos]

All parts across the hold short line is the more conservative. At UAL, we are not considered clear until all parts ARE across the hold line. Wingspan on a 747 is pretty impressive.

In other words, what I consider clear, and what ATC considers clear may not be the same, but mine is more conservative.

How exactly do you know when the back end of the mighty 777 is over the line? I've always wondered this.

 

[swamppilot]

The part about the edge of the runway deals with ATC. They can consider the aircraft clear of the runway for the purposes of operations with other aircraft. That's why the cavets about continued movement etc. If you come to a halt, say to do an after landing checklist, then you must be over the hold short line.

 

[gprellwitz]

The part about the edge of the runway deals with ATC.

Well, no. It says "A pilot or controller may consider an aircraft, which is exiting or crossing a runway, to be clear of the runway when all parts of the aircraft are beyond the runway edge"

They can consider the aircraft clear of the runway for the purposes of operations with other aircraft. That's why the cavets about continued movement etc. If you come to a halt, say to do an after landing checklist, then you must be over the hold short line.

And that's where the "there are no restrictions to its continued movement beyond the applicable runway holding position marking." comes into play. If you really must stop now, then there's a restriction and you can't be considered clear.

So basically, you can announce "clear of the runway" on CTAF once all parts of the aircraft are beyond the runway edge, even though you haven't passed the hold short line as long as you won't need to stop the plane until you are completely past it.

Now, as Greg pointed out, it's more conservative and safer to use the hold short line and not the edge of the runway for that purpose, but also keep in mind the difference in equipment. With my bugsmasher at Podunk Community, the plane on final waiting to land likely doesn't have wings that go out to the edge or the runway (or beyond!).

 

[tonycondon]

chip i always thought it meant the hold short lines too.

 

[gismo]

chip i always thought it meant the hold short lines too.

Heck, I've heard tower chew out a pilot for stopping before getting completely across the hold short line at my home base when their plane was definitely past the edge of the runway. If this interpretation has always been correct then at least some controllers don't know about it either.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm exactly with Lance -- I've always believed it was "all parts across the line," and I've heard plenty of folks dinged by controllers for stopping short of the point. That said, I think I see the difference...

I think the P/CG definition allows a controller to clear the next plane to land (or to consider the first plane clear of the runway for separation purposes) when it's on its way across the line and can continue all the way across. However, if you stop before you're completely across, you've fouled the runway behind you, and you just broke the expectation the controller had that you'd be fully clear by the time the next plane got there. If so, then what we're all doing is the right thing -- don't stop until you're fully across the line.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

How exactly do you know when the back end of the mighty 777 is over the line? I've always wondered this.

You get used to it.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I think the P/CG definition allows a controller to clear the next plane to land (or to consider the first plane clear of the runway for separation purposes) when it's on its way across the line and can continue all the way across.

Well, how do you account for the fact that an airplane can be cleared to land at the marker when the airplane in front is on half a mile final and not even on the runway?

However, if you stop before you're completely across, you've fouled the runway behind you, and you just broke the expectation the controller had that you'd be fully clear by the time the next plane got there. If so, then what we're all doing is the right thing -- don't stop until you're fully across the line.

Bingo

 

[kkoran]

Well, how do you account for the fact that an airplane can be cleared to land at the marker when the airplane in front is on half a mile final and not even on the runway?

Bingo

Easy...

JO 7110.65
3-10-6. ANTICIPATING SEPARATION​

a.​

​

​

Landing clearance to succeeding aircraft in a
landing sequence need not be withheld if you observe
the positions of the aircraft and determine that
prescribed runway separation will exist when the
aircraft cross the landing threshold. Issue traffic
information to the succeeding aircraft if not
previously reported and appropriate traffic holding in
position or departing prior to their arrival.​

 

[Teller1900]

Easy...

JO 7110.65
3-10-6. ANTICIPATING SEPARATION​

a.​

Landing clearance to succeeding aircraft in a
landing sequence need not be withheld if you observe
the positions of the aircraft and determine that
prescribed runway separation will exist when the
aircraft cross the landing threshold. Issue traffic
information to the succeeding aircraft if not
previously reported and appropriate traffic holding in
position or departing prior to their arrival.​

"Shooting the gap" as they call it at LGA. I take that to mean that you're not actually clear until you're across the hold short, but the controler and pilots can treat you like you are (give a landing/takeoff clearence, or stop worrying about a go-around) as they can make the safe assumption that you will be clear by the time the other traffic is there.

 

[Richard]

Several times in the anticipation of clearing after a landing, I have been caught twixt and tween because GND cluttered the taxiways which restricted my ability to fully clear. (Apperently GND and TWR don't communicate sometimes) That "shooting the gap" always carries an alternate hair trigger response if something should go amiss.

I have departed the taxiway and into the dirt in order to clear the rwy. Sometimes you have to anticpiate the controller's anticipation.

 

[Richard]

This thread begats the question, What is the purpose of the hold short line?

Sometimes the holdshort is hundreds of yards away from the rwy and just prior to a taxiway intersection.

 

[elzar]

For a pilot, which takes precedence, AIM or P/CG?

AIM 2-3-5.1

An aircraft exiting a runway is not clear of the runway until all parts of the aircraft have crossed the applicable holding position marking.

 

[CJones]

For a pilot, which takes precedence, AIM or P/CG?

AIM 2-3-5.1

An aircraft exiting a runway is not clear of the runway until all parts of the aircraft have crossed the applicable holding position marking.

As far as you (the pilot) is concerned, you are NOT clear of the runway until you are past the hold-short line, so don't stop until you are.

As far as the controller is concerned, you ARE clear (enough) of the runway once you are 'off' the runway and are giving him reason to believe that you will continue at least until you are past the hold-short line.

Allowing controllers to declare you 'clear' of the runway once you are off the runway surface is just a way to give them a few extra seconds to get a departure out, etc.

At least, that's how I read it.

As for uncontrolled fields, I have always announced "clear of runway" once my a/c is completely off the runway surface as long as I am still in motion moving away from the runway. If I'm unsure of where I'm going and I'm moving fairly slow, I'll withhold 'clear of runway' until I am past the h/s line because if I have to stop and look at a taxiway diagram, etc., I don't want someone barreling down the runway on takeoff only to see my tail 2' off the edge of the runway.