Class D airports and radar

Control Zones never got made into ARSAs either. I'll be willing to believe that the FAA migrated the busiest TRSAs into ARSAs back in the day, but it has ***NEVER*** not now, not in 1993 when alphabet airspace was instigated, not back in the days TRSAs and ARSAs were established that traffic count made a ATA (not CONTROL ZONE, a control zone doesn't necessarily have a tower. CZ is the old term for "surface area of controlled airspace designated for an airport") into an TRSA, ARSA, TCA, Class C or B airspace.

AOPA's statement is just plain and simple WRONG.
 
flyingron said:
Control Zones never got made into ARSAs either. I'll be willing to believe that the FAA migrated the busiest TRSAs into ARSAs back in the day, but it has ***NEVER*** not now, not in 1993 when alphabet airspace was instigated, not back in the days TRSAs and ARSAs were established that traffic count made a ATA (not CONTROL ZONE, a control zone doesn't necessarily have a tower. CZ is the old term for "surface area of controlled airspace designated for an airport") into an TRSA, ARSA, TCA, Class C or B airspace.

AOPA's statement is just plain and simple WRONG.
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Yeah, never said CZs got upgraded to ARSAs either. Not sure where you got that from. I'm saying a TRSA had more traffic than a CZ (that had a twr) or an ATA (obviously had a twr) but not as much traffic than an ARSA. It's that simple.

If you and Steven believe they used some other primary method in determining how to establish a TRSA, I'd like to hear it.
 
It's that simple, but it's UNRUE. TRAFFIC COUNTS do not nor do they ever elevate a towered field to a TRSA/ARSA/TCA/CLASS B/CLASS C. You can keep staying that, but it doesn't make it true.

As I pointed out, there are many airports that don't have Class C's that have more traffic counts than many class C airports. There are lots of Class C airports that have much less traffic than many uncontrolled or class D airports. While traffic counts are ONE of the factors that determines if a class C will be established it is NOT the only factor involved.
 
Velocity173 said:
:confused: Didn't say they were established today. I'm talking about when they were originally established (post # 11) years ago before our current airspace classification. I think it's reasonable to assume they used some sort of traffic count to upgrade it from a CZ or not to make it an ARSA. Perhaps they just rolled the dice, I don't know, but the AOPA presentations make sense to me.
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TRSAs did not replace Control Zones, they were in addition to them.
 
flyingron said:
It's that simple, but it's UNRUE. TRAFFIC COUNTS do not nor do they ever elevate a towered field to a TRSA/ARSA/TCA/CLASS B/CLASS C. You can keep staying that, but it doesn't make it true.

As I pointed out, there are many airports that don't have Class C's that have more traffic counts than many class C airports. There are lots of Class C airports that have much less traffic than many uncontrolled or class D airports. While traffic counts are ONE of the factors that determines if a class C will be established it is NOT the only factor involved.
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So you're saying that no airport that started out as a simple towered controlled airspace ever upgraded to something higher because the airport grew with the increase in traffic?

As I said, traffic load is only one consideration. As far as Class Cs and traffic, I'd say it's pretty important in determining the airspace classification:

1. The airport must be serviced by an operational airport traffic control tower and a radar approach control; and 2. One of the following applies: (a) An annual instrument operations count of 75,000 at the primary airport. (b) An annual instrument operations count of 100,000 at the primary and secondary airports in the terminal area hub. (c) An annual count of 250,000 enplaned passengers at the primary airport.
 
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roncachamp said:
TRSAs did not replace Control Zones, they were in addition to them.
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I said "Upgrade." Meaning-an enhancement or improvement in grade, class, or position.

Hierarchy of airspace. Just like the Ds inside TRSAs today. It's not just a D but a D surrounded by a TRSA.

So tell me then, what criterion do you think they used to establish a TRSA...back in the day?
 
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Velocity173 said:
I said "Upgrade." Meaning-an enhancement or improvement in grade, class, or position.
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You said upgrade from a Control Zone. The establishment of a TRSA did not affect the Control Zone.

Hierarchy of airspace. Just like the Ds inside TRSAs today. It's not just a D but a D surrounded by a TRSA.
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Hierarchy of airspace refers to the classes of controlled airspace.

So tell me then, what criterion do you think they used to establish a TRSA...back in the day?
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I don't recall. TRSAs, along with a lot of other changes, were proposed following the San Diego midair in 1978. When they finally arrived their establishment seemed rather arbitrary. Rockford, which has consistently had trouble retaining airline service, got one, while Duluth, which had airline service as well as USAF and ANG operations, did not. Rochester had one for a while but by 1988 it was gone. IMHO the TRSAs that didn't qualify for conversion to ARSAs should have been dropped.
 
Doesn't much matter if it's in a TRSA or ARSA or any other kind of airspace, or how the FAA decides what kind of airspace to make it. The only sure way for a pilot to find out whether it's a radar tower or not without doing an ungodly amount of research is to call them and ask.

And I don't know about you, but I've got unlimited monthly minutes on my phone.
 
Ron Levy said:
Doesn't much matter if it's in a TRSA or ARSA or any other kind of airspace, or how the FAA decides what kind of airspace to make it. The only sure way for a pilot to find out whether it's a radar tower or not without doing an ungodly amount of research is to call them and ask.
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Checking the A/FD doesn't seem like an ungodly amount of research to me. Quicker than a phone call too.
 
roncachamp said:
The Airport/Facility Directory. Let's use KRST as an example, look under COMMUNICATIONS. There are two circled Rs, the first is unnamed because it's on the field. Minneapolis ARTCC provides radar services when the tower is closed. If an off-field facility provided services when the tower is open that facility would be named. KATW is an example of such a field, radar services are provided by Green Bay approach.

Up to about six years ago sectional charts would show a white R inside a blue circle in the airport data block to indicate ASR on a field without Class B or Class C airspace or a TRSA. These were dropped to reduce clutter.
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Your example is for a tower providing app/dep services on a part time basis, my question was how do you tell which towers have radar and which do not.
 
roncachamp said:
It does for those of us that understand it. See post #10.
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I understand it, and you are wrong. See the entry for Baltimore-Washington (KBWI) -- no circle-R by the Baltimore Tower line, only by Potomac App/Dep, which is not collocated, but I know BWI is a radar tower.
 
Clip4 said:
Your example is for a tower providing app/dep services on a part time basis, my question was how do you tell which towers have radar and which do not.
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I provided two examples. One with ASR on the field, KRST, and one where radar services are provided by another facility with ASR at another field, KATW.
 
Ron Levy said:
I understand it, and you are wrong. See the entry for Baltimore-Washington (KBWI) -- no circle-R by the Baltimore Tower line, only by Potomac App/Dep, which is not collocated, but I know BWI is a radar tower.
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You don't even understand the title of this thread. Baltimore is in Class B airspace.
 
I believe the OP is wondering which towers have radar feeds (BRITE / BRANDS) and not which ones are served by an approach control on or off the field???
 
roncachamp said:
You don't even understand the title of this thread. Baltimore is in Class B airspace.
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So what? The question was whether there's a way to tell if a tower in D-space is a radar tower, and there is no way to tell that looking at the A/FD -- not even as you described in post #10.
 
Velocity173 said:
I believe the OP is wondering which towers have radar feeds (BRITE / BRANDS) and not which ones are served by an approach control on or off the field???
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As I said earlier, there are plenty of towers which have some sort of radar display in the cab but are not "radar towers" permitted to perform radar separation and vectoring. If that's what the OP really wants to know, the only reasonable way (I exclude contacting the regional ATC office or the like) for a pilot to find out is to call the tower involved.
 
Ron Levy said:
So what? The question was whether there's a way to tell if a tower in D-space is a radar tower, and there is no way to tell that looking at the A/FD -- not even as you described in post #10.
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Please explain why what I described does not work.
 
An example of a Class D tower with radar - Dubuque Iowa KDBQ. If I ask, when I am outside their airspace, the tower tells me whether there is any traffic in my area.
 
roncachamp said:
I already did, KRST.
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Nothing there showing Rochester Tower is a radar tower, only that radar service is provided by Rochester Approach at some times and Minneapolis Center at others. Doesn't indicate whether the Local controller in the tower cab has the gear to provide radar separation/vectoring.
 
NoHeat said:
An example of a Class D tower with radar - Dubuque Iowa KDBQ. If I ask, when I am outside their airspace, the tower tells me whether there is any traffic in my area.
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There is no radar at DBQ, radar services are provided by Chicago center.
 
Ron Levy said:
Nothing there showing Rochester Tower is a radar tower, only that radar service is provided by Rochester Approach at some times and Minneapolis Center at others. Doesn't indicate whether the Local controller in the tower cab has the gear to provide radar separation/vectoring.
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Please cite the official FAA publication where you found the term "radar tower" defined.
 
For what it's worth, the A/FD legend says that the R with a circle around it indicates radar approach control and/or radar departure control. I don't see any mention of whether the tower has radar.
 
Lol! Once again, two different conversations going on. Three if you count the painful TRSA debate.

There are Class D towers that have a radar feed (BRANDS). I haven't heard of any of them being certified type (BRITE, TDW, ADC) in Class Ds. They're left with a system that provides SA and nothing more. Other facilities like Cs and Bs have certified displays that can be used somewhat like a normal radar display. If you want to know which type your tower has, just call them.

Now if we're talking Class Ds with a radar facility being there, there are a bunch in the military; NKT, NBC, NYL, OZR. I'm sure there are a few civilian ones as well. FLO has been mentioned and it appears HLN is one too. In that case if you want to know if it's a "radar tower" just check the AFD.
 
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I always thought that class D separation services applied only to what the controller sees with the Mark-2 eyeballs. So if a tower has a radar, it is like the display of our blip on an iPad chart in our cockpit. It's good for enhancing situational awareness but is not the same as the information conveyed by the suite of panel mounted certified avionics. Flying an instrument approach to minima in hard IMC with an iPad is not only not legal, it is not very clever, unless of course 7700 happens to be your transponder code at the time.
 
DrMack said:
I always thought that class D separation services applied only to what the controller sees with the Mark-2 eyeballs. So if a tower has a radar, it is like the display of our blip on an iPad chart in our cockpit. It's good for enhancing situational awareness but is not the same as the information conveyed by the suite of panel mounted certified avionics. Flying an instrument approach to minima in hard IMC with an iPad is not only not legal, it is not very clever, unless of course 7700 happens to be your transponder code at the time.
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Separation minima in Class D airspace exists only between IFR aircraft, the same as Class E airspace.
 
Sioux Falls, SD Sioux City, IA Grand Forks, ND Bismark, ND and plenty others have radar approach service but no class C or TRSA. The only indication I can ever find is the box on the sectional to contact approach. I know this service as MRSA (mystery radar service area).
 
What purpose does a TRACON like the one at KRST serve? Is there any point in contacting them for a VFR flight?
 
dmspilot said:
What purpose does a TRACON like the one at KRST serve? Is there any point in contacting them for a VFR flight?
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They provide service just like any other TRACON. It's just an approach control usually based at the airfield that has it's own airspace and doesn't deal with some of the separation (VFR vs IFR) and the more stringent requirements (transponder) of class Bs and Cs. They serve not only the primary airport but the secondary airports as well. Just look at the airports around RST, Rochester approach is the controlling facility for them.

Like I said, there are a bunch of military fields that have class Ds with their own approach control based there. They are TRACONs but have different names; RAPCON (AF), RATCF (Navy / Marines) and ARACs (Army) In the old days they were referred to as stage II radar services for VFR aircraft but has been dropped for basic radar service or what we refer to as flight following. They provide vectors on request, traffic advisories, safety alerts, weather advisories, etc. Some are quite busy as well. Not sure where Cairns Approach (OZR) ranks these days but it's tower handles well over 200,000 operations annually.
 
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dmspilot said:
What purpose does a TRACON like the one at KRST serve? Is there any point in contacting them for a VFR flight?
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The same purpose other TRACONs serve. For VFR flights they provide the same radar services ARTCCs do.
 
dmspilot said:
What purpose does a TRACON like the one at KRST serve? Is there any point in contacting them for a VFR flight?
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Contact them within 20miles if you plan to land at the primary. They will also give vfr advisories (FF) if asked. If you are on FF below 8k you will often be handed to one of those facilities.
 
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