Class B

Terry

Terry

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Apr 3, 2005
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738
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LaCrosse
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Display name:
Terry
Hi All;

Can a student pilot fly in class B air space?

Thanks;
Terry
 
From the RGL site...

A student pilot may enter a specific Class B airspace if the student has been instructed on that specific airspace and endorsed by the same instructor. A student pilot may not land at the Class B primary airport at a specific list of airports listed in AIM 3-2-3(b)(2).

2. No person may take off or land a civil aircraft
at the following primary airports within Class B
airspace unless the pilot-in-command holds at least
a private pilot certificate:​

(a) Andrews Air Force Base, MD
(b) Atlanta Hartsfield Airport, GA
(c) Boston Logan Airport, MA
(d) Chicago O'Hare Intl. Airport, IL
(e) Dallas/Fort Worth Intl. Airport, TX
(f) Los Angeles Intl. Airport, CA
(g) Miami Intl. Airport, FL
(h) Newark Intl. Airport, NJ
(i) New York Kennedy Airport, NY
(j) New York La Guardia Airport, NY
(k) Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport, DC​
(l) San Francisco Intl. Airport, CA
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I tried to quote this right after the other post but the site's page locked up on me. If you were my student, I'd lead ya to the source then let ya look it up. I decided to be nice. Besides, I get to pass out plenty of abuse tomorrow preparing a student for a final progress check. :)
 
LearDriver said:
In some with certain requirements met, yes. In others NO. Buy a 09 FAR AIM, all the details will be in there.
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Almost good advice. For real, up-to-date, accurate information, including changes that have been issued since the print version was published, go to the FAA web site.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
Almost good advice. For real, up-to-date, accurate information, including changes that have been issued since the print version was published, go to the FAA web site.

Bob Gardner
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Sorry about the misinformation. I stand corrected. I should have said if you are student pilot go ask your flight instructor.

My point was read the book. The information is in there. Yes you may need to follow up with other sources for the most up to date version. But many student pilots don't even take the reading of the FAR AIM seriously enough to take the first step of reading the book in the first place.

Many of the questions that are put up by students and newer private pilots would have been answered if they were to consult the book first.

The other publications that I find most pilots are completely unfamiliar with is Advisory Circulars.

BTW if you buy the FAR AIM coverage from Jeppesen you receive updates throughout the year if you buy the revision service. It is quite expensive in comparison to the ASA FAR AIM. however, you will not need internet service available to check the latest updates and revisions.
 
Hi All;

Sorry I asked. :frown2:

I was watching my Sporty's flight review DVD and they mentioned something about it.

Next time I will make a point to read the FAR/AIM. (Sheeesh)

Terry
PPL, IR

I am hesitant about posting the above because I think being short with everyone is not a good way to communicate. I apologize for being lazy and not looking up the regulation and taking up your time.

Some of you need to realize that there are a lot of pilots who never have been in class B airspace. Who never fly at a towered field.

Thanks to all of you who answered nicely and informing me where I could look it up. I will.

I am over it. :D
 
Terry said:
Hi All;

Sorry I asked. :frown2:

I was watching my Sporty's flight review DVD and they mentioned something about it.

Next time I will make a point to read the FAR/AIM. (Sheeesh)

Terry
PPL, IR

I am hesitant about posting the above because I think being short with everyone is not a good way to communicate. I apologize for being lazy and not looking up the regulation and taking up your time.

Some of you need to realize that there are a lot of pilots who never have been in class B airspace. Who never fly at a towered field.

Thanks to all of you who answered nicely and informing me where I could look it up. I will.

I am over it. :D
Click to expand...

Sorry if you felt my response was directed at you. It wasn't, it was directed at Bob. What you should take from it is that many times instructors don't emphasize enough the importance of the rule book and how to look up answers to your questions that will come up the entire time that you are a pilot. However, you will not always be under an instructors wing so being self sufficient is really an important skill for a pilot.

I know that it is a boring read. However, most everything is addressed there. The AIM is a great tool to understand how the entire system that you will be interacting with works.

By all means ask all the questions that you need to help you figure things out. Don't be surprised to hear people direct you to a place in one of the books where you can get all the information.

Actually if you pick up a copy of the PTS, you will find a list of the publications that are the basis of knowledge for the rating or certificate that you are working on. Those publications should all become part of your personal library.
 
Well Terry, as far as i'm concerned you dont need to apolgize, If you cant ask a question here where can you this is supposed to be a FRIENDLY forum and you should not get battered for asking. I personally think asking questions here enlighten all of us. Some of the people here never flew into or want to land at Class B airports but now they have some idea what is required to do so. Yes you could have looked it up but for a quick answer i think you did the right thing
Dave G
 
Terry, I hope you didn't take offense to my post. I was really teasing. I have no problem answering a question. I do have a way of handling questions by students after they learn the possible sources. That way, they are more likely to remember the answer.

Good luck on your continued study. Always feel free to ask here. I'll help wherever I can and enjoy doing so.
 
LearDriver said:
Sorry if you felt my response was directed at you. It wasn't, it was directed at Bob. What you should take from it is that many times instructors don't emphasize enough the importance of the rule book and how to look up answers to your questions that will come up the entire time that you are a pilot. However, you will not always be under an instructors wing so being self sufficient is really an important skill for a pilot.

I know that it is a boring read. However, most everything is addressed there. The AIM is a great tool to understand how the entire system that you will be interacting with works.

By all means ask all the questions that you need to help you figure things out. Don't be surprised to hear people direct you to a place in one of the books where you can get all the information.

Actually if you pick up a copy of the PTS, you will find a list of the publications that are the basis of knowledge for the rating or certificate that you are working on. Those publications should all become part of your personal library.
Click to expand...

And all that I was saying was that even the most current book might not have the most current information in it. Although I get a nice royalty check from ASA every month, I am not reluctant to point out that changes and revisions show up on the FAA web site long before ASA or any other any publisher (including Jeppesen) gets anything into print. When you download the AIM from the FAA site, it is searchable by chapter (Edit, Find...search box in lower left corner). Same is true of other FAA pubs, including the Practical Test Standard and Advisory Circulars.

I add my invitation to any and all to ask questions in the forum; sometimes you will get answers, other times you will get references, on rare occasions you will get flamed. When I was a student pilot in Juneau in 1960 there were no other students, no classrooms, no references other than an FAR/AIM and Pilots Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge...no one to bounce questions off of except my instructor, and he was forever flying off to service a logging or fishing operation. These days, we can pick the brains of all kinds of pilots from all over the world, with a broad range of experience. Take advantage of it and roll with the punches.

Bob Gardner
 
Hi All:

I did go and look it up and read the FAR/AIM. I was even going to post the reading but felt it was too long.

Also, I actually didn't understand there were exceptions and thought I would receive a Yes or No answer.

So, I apologize for getting miffed at the replies. It was just a rough work day but in reality the remarks I made were my responsibility.

So, okay, I might, just might, take my first trip into class B sometime next month. I do think I will take my CFII for the right seat companion and file IFR. I am current but "not proficient" and can use some hood time and someone who knows protocol for class B.

I think the closet class B would be Kansas City. I fly out of Hays, Kansas.

So, OFFICIAL APOLOGY ALL, thanks for making me get the FAR/AIM out. I knew I kept it around for something. :D

Terry,
 
Terry said:
Hi All:

I did go and look it up and read the FAR/AIM. I was even going to post the reading but felt it was too long.

Also, I actually didn't understand there were exceptions and thought I would receive a Yes or No answer.

So, I apologize for getting miffed at the replies. It was just a rough work day but in reality the remarks I made were my responsibility.

So, okay, I might, just might, take my first trip into class B sometime next month. I do think I will take my CFII for the right seat companion and file IFR. I am current but "not proficient" and can use some hood time and someone who knows protocol for class B.

I think the closet class B would be Kansas City. I fly out of Hays, Kansas.

So, OFFICIAL APOLOGY ALL, thanks for making me get the FAR/AIM out. I knew I kept it around for something. :D

Terry,
Click to expand...
No problem, Terry! Personally, I find the online FAR/AIM not only the most up-to-date, but the most convenient, too!

I'm glad you said you were close to the KC Bravo. If it were the Chicago Bravo, your instructor wouldn't even be able to get clearance into the airspace in order to give you the required training! I fly out of an airport based underneath the ORD Class B, and have been cleared through no more than three times, and that includes when flying IFR! Note that it is the exception rather than the rule, from what I understand.
 
Terry said:
I think the closet class B would be Kansas City. I fly out of Hays, Kansas.
Click to expand...

Ahh, the Kansas City Class B is a blast. Truthfully, its probably not busy enough to truly be classified as a Class B, but it is. They were really friendly, even when I wanted to do a touch and go, at the main airport. Heck, I made a Frontier A319 wait, while I did a touch and go in a Diamond 20. I can't imagine what all those passengers thought, when they saw this little guy, landing in front of them. Then, they took off after I did, but I still beat them to 3000 MSL (about 2000 AGL). It was fun, and there was a minute there, where I had an Airbus, formed up off my wing, about a mile. Was cool to look over, and see some wild animal staring back at me!

But yeah, the Class B is KC is very friendly. Should you venture over to KC, enjoy it. Its fun to do.
 
LearDriver said:
Terry,

It seems like you are just as close to Denver's class B. That might make a good training flight as well.
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Hays is just about dead center between MCI and DEN with Denver being about fifty miles further. Either way, that places Hays just about in the middle of no where.

I used to make monthly driving trips between Denver and Atlanta. Hays was usually a fuel stop and often at Love's. I can't think of a better way to get across that stretch between Denver and Kansas City than flying. That 600 miles seemingly took longer than the 800 between Kansas City and Atlanta. At least Kansas troopers were rarely found!
 
Terry said:
So, OFFICIAL APOLOGY ALL, thanks for making me get the FAR/AIM out. I knew I kept it around for something. :D
Click to expand...
This is a case of telling someone RTFM. I never do that without saying which FM and where to look. The idea is that being acquainted with the FM will help you when there's nobody around to tell you to RTFM in the first place. :)
 
LearDriver said:
Sorry about the misinformation. I stand corrected. I should have said if you are student pilot go ask your flight instructor.
Click to expand...

I disagree. There is no knowledge a Flight Instructor possesses that a student pilot, a certificated pilot, of even some dude that's never flown an airplane can't posses himself.

Its all available through reference, and I strongly suggest not relying on a CFI for any knowledge. I've been given wrong information from too many of them, and the FAA won't take "Well, Jim Bob, my CFI told me it works this way."

I'm glad you found the answer, Terry. Please don't be afraid to ask questions, its the best way to learn. And don't be surprised if the answer is "Read the FARs, specifically, this one xx.xx.xx." People will usually guide you in the right direction.

The way I usually ask is to reply back with my findings, because some FARs are confusing and its easier to understand with a group deciphering it with you, and also in case someone else can learn from your findings. Good luck!
 
As a bit of an aside, while I find the online FAR and AIM to be very convenient when I'm at my desk, I've also purchased two apps for my iPod Touch (also available for the iPhone) - PilotFAR and PilotAIM. They were about $5 each, but they contain the full text of their respective publication, and you get updates free and automatically. And, you don't need an internet connection to use them. It makes it very easy and convenient to search for the answer you need while on the go.
 
SkyHog said:
I disagree. There is no knowledge a Flight Instructor possesses that a student pilot, a certificated pilot, of even some dude that's never flown an airplane can't posses himself.
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If you are speaking strictly about regulations, I agree. There is some knowledge, however, that only comes from experience.
 
Greebo said:
If you are speaking strictly about regulations, I agree. There is some knowledge, however, that only comes from experience.
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And the ability to track down court rulings and FAA interpretations is something that, if it's even available online, I haven't mastered. And certainly some regulations haven't been interpreted to mean what the reasonable and prudent pilot would interpret them to mean just looking at the regulations.
 
SkyHog said:
I disagree. There is no knowledge a Flight Instructor possesses that a student pilot, a certificated pilot, of even some dude that's never flown an airplane can't posses himself.

Its all available through reference, and I strongly suggest not relying on a CFI for any knowledge. I've been given wrong information from too many of them, and the FAA won't take "Well, Jim Bob, my CFI told me it works this way."
Click to expand...

I'm with Nick on this when it comes to book knowledge. I have come across plenty of CFIs who have incorrect understandings of regulations that are very clearly spelled out in the FARs if you read them. So, I would say it's good for all pilots to read through the FAR/AIM. Generally when I ask them about something that I believe is incorrect and question them more, they'll then look it up and be impressed that I had that extra bit of knowledge. So, if you're not sure, question (respectfully). If the CFI doesn't like being questioned, you probably need a new CFI.

A good CFI will be able to give you the practical understanding of how things work and should be able to do the same for book knowledge. Seeing as CFIs are human and suffer human weaknesses, they may forget things. Compound this with the attitude of "If I admit I don't know something, the student will lose confidence in me" so they make it up, and you have a situation where a student can get incorrect knowledge. What is nice about these forums is that you have a number of experienced people who do know the regs well who can answer these questions. What's annoying is that people tend to have the "Me too!" attitude (I'm not always excluded from this), and so you get more than you bargained for in a response.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Compound this with the attitude of "If I admit I don't know something, the student will lose confidence in me" so they make it up, and you have a situation where a student can get incorrect knowledge.
Click to expand...

CFIs who do this haven't paid any attention to the FOI. The amount of respect/trust (if any) lost by saying "I don't know, let's look it up" pales in comparison to the amount lost when a student's BS detector goes off.
 
Greebo said:
If you are speaking strictly about regulations, I agree. There is some knowledge, however, that only comes from experience.
Click to expand...

I would admit that skills are something that comes from experience, but beyond that, I can't think of anything specific knowledgewise that comes from experience aside from shortcuts and rumors.

Remember, a while back, there was an argument/discussion about the proper way to enter the ADIZ? A few people were saying "Well, that may be what's written, but here's what works." That's what I'm talking about.

But I'm willing to concede the point if something can be pointed out that I'm missing....
 
SkyHog said:
I would admit that skills are something that comes from experience,
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That's what I'm referring to. Things like knowing when it's time to pull the nose up just a little more so the plane settles gently onto the runway, or when to kick in a little extra rudder cause of a little crosswind gust. Non-book knowledge.
 
TMetzinger said:
CFIs who do this haven't paid any attention to the FOI. The amount of respect/trust (if any) lost by saying "I don't know, let's look it up" pales in comparison to the amount lost when a student's BS detector goes off.
Click to expand...

Having scored a 100 on my FOI, I am aware. ;)

A number of teachers (whether they be flight instructors or school teachers) aren't student focused, they're self focused. As such, it's all about them. They know everything, it's all about how great they are for showing off how much they know, etc. Egos get in the way, students suffer. I had a number of teachers in school who were self focused rather than student focused. Some just weren't focused on anything, and that was similarly bad. :)

I've always been of the opinion that teaching is for the benefit of the student, not the teacher. Hopefully, acting on this mindset will help me to put out better students.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Having scored a 100 on my FOI, I am aware. ;)

A number of teachers (whether they be flight instructors or school teachers) aren't student focused, they're self focused. As such, it's all about them. They know everything, it's all about how great they are for showing off how much they know, etc. Egos get in the way, students suffer. I had a number of teachers in school who were self focused rather than student focused. Some just weren't focused on anything, and that was similarly bad. :)

I've always been of the opinion that teaching is for the benefit of the student, not the teacher. Hopefully, acting on this mindset will help me to put out better students.
Click to expand...

I agree but would add this nitpicky trivial caveat (that isn't in the FOI)...

A teacher of any stripe who isn't him/herself also a student, and eagerly learning at the same time will be a poor primary instructor.

The CFI who climbs in for "one more trip around the patch," and is not expecting to learn something new each time -- won't.

Sure, there's a smidge of selfish intent implied there, but that's ok. The student will benefit from the instructor's enthusiasm and interest.

More advanced students can glean information from tired old experts, because they know what questions to ask (or at least what to observe), and have built up a reserve of commitment that can overcome the withering stare of the guru.

The new student (usually) is wondering "is this for me?", and too much been-there-and-seen-it-all will wilt the most engaged student's will.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'm with Nick on this when it comes to book knowledge. I have come across plenty of CFIs who have incorrect understandings of regulations that are very clearly spelled out in the FARs if you read them. So, I would say it's good for all pilots to read through the FAR/AIM. Generally when I ask them about something that I believe is incorrect and question them more, they'll then look it up and be impressed that I had that extra bit of knowledge. So, if you're not sure, question (respectfully). If the CFI doesn't like being questioned, you probably need a new CFI.

A good CFI will be able to give you the practical understanding of how things work and should be able to do the same for book knowledge. Seeing as CFIs are human and suffer human weaknesses, they may forget things. Compound this with the attitude of "If I admit I don't know something, the student will lose confidence in me" so they make it up, and you have a situation where a student can get incorrect knowledge. What is nice about these forums is that you have a number of experienced people who do know the regs well who can answer these questions. What's annoying is that people tend to have the "Me too!" attitude (I'm not always excluded from this), and so you get more than you bargained for in a response.
Click to expand...

Amen. The number of times a post in this or other forums has revealed a lack of knowledge/understanding on the part of an instructor is amazing. These days, pilots have access to tons of reliable information, and "my instructor told me...." just doesn't hack it.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
Amen. The number of times a post in this or other forums has revealed a lack of knowledge/understanding on the part of an instructor is amazing. These days, pilots have access to tons of reliable information, and "my instructor told me...." just doesn't hack it.

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...
And hopefully the discussions we have here, though they may seem pedantic or even argumentative at times, will educate both the active participants in the discussion and the lurkers or those who stumble across the discussion as a result of a search engine. Even when we have to try telling someone the same thing five different ways, that's the same situation an instructor may face with a student. Seeing the alternative ways of presenting information will hopefully help all (certified instructors and students) understand the subject better.
 
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