citation down at crq, tfr question

[mmilano]

apparently someone saw it approaching the runway, gear up, very fast. 4 fatalities. happened at 6:40am, tower opens at 7am.

right now there is a tfr at a nearby vor, OCN with a 3 mile radius under 3000. news reports say the airport is closed until further notice. i called the atis to confirm and it is just busy.

my question is: why do they have the tfr for 3 miles over a vor that is more than 3 miles from the field?

http://tfr2.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_6_0874.html
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/northcounty/20060124-0740-bn24plane2.html

 

[MSmith]

The TFR is NOT over the VOR, it's over a point 10.6 miles along the 119 radial.

That's the standard method for defining a point in a TFR along with lat/long coordinates.

 

[EdFred]

Says it's for search and rescue:

!FDC 6/0874 ZLA CA.. TFR, OCEANSIDE, CA.
PURSUANT TO 14 CFR SECTION 91.137(A)(2)
To provide a safe environment for aircraft accident support.
In effect until further notice
SFC-3000 MSL
Aircraft flight operations prohibited within 3NMR 330700N/1171600W OCN119010.6

UNLESS AUTHORIZED BY ATC
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA TRACON FAA TELEPHONE 858-537-5900/ IS IN CHARGE OF THE OPERATION.
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA TRACON FAA , is the FAA coordination facility.
******CAUTION: This TFR Overlay Display System (TODS) is updated Monday - Friday 1200-2000 UTC. CONFIRM DATA CURRENCY THROUGH ALTERNATE SOURCES AT OTHER TIMES. For interpretation of this TFR contact your local FSS.******


It doesnt look like it is on the VOR.

 

[mmilano]

oh, a good lesson on thorough reading. i must have read it quick and inserted that myself. maybe i mentally associated the tfr circle with the compass rose i normally see over oceanside. thanks.

 

[poadeleted20]

oh, a good lesson on thorough reading. i must have read it quick

Don't feel bad -- a 12,000-hour ATP read a DUATS briefing and completely missed the AIRMET for icing.

 

[Steve]

If you follow TFR issuances you'll often see the first notification of plane crashes, train wrecks, hostage situations, hazmat spills, and all variety of mayhem. 3nm radius and below 3000'-4000' agl is usually a good indication.

 

[Henning]

apparently someone saw it approaching the runway, gear up, very fast. 4 fatalities. happened at 6:40am, tower opens at 7am.

Makes me wonder if this was a SP flight. IIRC if you set up the FMS and engage it and fall asleep, this is what happens, it takes you there and flys the approach to the runway unless you interfere. Since there was no interuption nor input of gear and flaps, it's gonna rock down the pipe clean and fast and burrow a furrow into the ground, probably right at the ILS intercept.

 

[mmilano]

wow, that makes a lot of sense since the reports say it hit a shack that housed airport equipment. it was calm and clear and i've been thinking about how that could have happened all day.

 

[Bill]

Makes me wonder if this was a SP flight. .

SP? something pressure? Like that golfer's plane that went down years back?

 

[poadeleted20]

SP? something pressure? Like that golfer's plane that went down years back?

Nope - "Single Pilot." While the regs normally call for all multiengine jets to be 2-pilot airplanes, Cessna pioneered the single pilot, or "SP," certification of its Citation line. These planes have certain features not required otherwise (like a boom mike and a transponder ident switch on the yoke or throttle) to allow the pilot to perform without letting go of the yoke and throttles tasks that normally require a free hand. The aircraft also must have a sophisticated autopilot/flight director system not normally required.

In addition to special aircraft certification (most seen from the outside by the label "Citation I/SP" on the side), the pilot must also be SP-certified by taking a ride with an examiner and having an "SP" added to his type rating for that jet. I think Henning is suggesting that a solo pilot who launched at zero-dark-thirty is more susceptible to falling asleep in the cockpit than both members of a 2-person crew (although even a 3-person crew can do it -- Delta almost lost a 727 many years back on a very late Houston-Jacksonville night flight -- the crew woke up about 100 miles east of JAX, with nothing but a lot of black in front of them).

 

[Bill]

Nope - "Single Pilot." While the regs normally call for all multiengine jets to be 2-pilot airplanes, Cessna pioneered the single pilot, or "SP," certification of its Citation line...

...I think Henning is suggesting that a solo pilot who launched at zero-dark-thirty is more susceptible to falling asleep in the cockpit than both members of a 2-person crew

Thanks for the edification, Ron, learn something new every day! I can see that happening in the planes we fly, put the autopilot into GPSS mode with altitude hold, and you could very well fall asleep until the plane ran out of gas.

 

[SkyHog]

(although even a 3-person crew can do it -- Delta almost lost a 727 many years back on a very late Houston-Jacksonville night flight -- the crew woke up about 100 miles east of JAX, with nothing but a lot of black in front of them).

That sounds like it'd be an interesting story to read. My mind wants to know how they figured their location.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

or incapacitation on approach - I think you have to select approach mode on most of these before it will track the loc/gs.... and you can't get to the airport in that mode, and you can't activate an approach enroute. (I can't see anyone 'falling asleep' on the approach) Usually gear down at the marker so I vote incapacitation between the final vector to intercept (when you select approach mode), and the marker. If we are allowed to speculate.

 

[Steve]

More info in the video at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11006288/

Not much left to examine....

 

[gismo]

That sounds like it'd be an interesting story to read. My mind wants to know how they figured their location.

I want to know how they explained it to the boss.

 

[anonn]

Makes me wonder if this was a SP flight. IIRC if you set up the FMS and engage it and fall asleep, this is what happens, it takes you there and flys the approach to the runway unless you interfere. Since there was no interuption nor input of gear and flaps, it's gonna rock down the pipe clean and fast and burrow a furrow into the ground, probably right at the ILS intercept.

I don't think the Citation V is approved for single pilot ops.

 

[river_rat]

According to this article there was a pilot and co-pilot.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/northcounty/20060125-9999-1mc25palomar.html

greg

 

[mmilano]

the ATIS is reporting the ILS out of service, so that must have been what they hit first before going over the hill.

 

[Henning]

That sounds like it'd be an interesting story to read. My mind wants to know how they figured their location.

Ded Reckoning would be how I'd start "snort..Hehm Uh, crap... wake up you two... what freakin time is it?.... what time we take off?.... flying 080 for 4hrs at this speed... ahhh crap, we gotta be 100 miles offshore" I can hear a a version of that in their cockpit.

 

[Henning]

or incapacitation on approach - I think you have to select approach mode on most of these before it will track the loc/gs.... and you can't get to the airport in that mode, and you can't activate an approach enroute. (I can't see anyone 'falling asleep' on the approach) Usually gear down at the marker so I vote incapacitation between the final vector to intercept (when you select approach mode), and the marker. If we are allowed to speculate.

Something, I'm not sure how it works, but from what I've read so far it sure sounds like the plane autopiloted neatly into the ILS shack. BTW, I know people who could fall asleep on approach. I knew a guy who used to fall asleep in the middle of selling a customer a car. Be talkin' away behind the desk, and bang, his head drops back midsentence, and he starts snoring.

 

[poadeleted20]

That sounds like it'd be an interesting story to read. My mind wants to know how they figured their location.

ATC and NORAD had been tracking them all the way. Once the turned the jet around and got on 121.5, there was plenty of help.

"Uhhh...ladies and gentlemen, ummm...we've had stronger headwinds than usual tonight, and our arrival in Jacksonville will be about 30 minutes behind schedule...and for those of you who've been watching out the window, you'll see that due to a Cecil wind, Dystor has vectored us into a 360-tossen of slor traffic. Now we'll maintain this Borden hold until we get the Forta Magnus clearance from Meldings."

 

[Earthroamer]

or incapacitation on approach - I think you have to select approach mode on most of these before it will track the loc/gs.... and you can't get to the airport in that mode, and you can't activate an approach enroute. (I can't see anyone 'falling asleep' on the approach) Usually gear down at the marker so I vote incapacitation between the final vector to intercept (when you select approach mode), and the marker. If we are allowed to speculate.

Not a citation driver but a lear driver. Our a/c will track the ILS from enroute on the FMS. The autopilot is normall on NAV during enroute. The ILS is normally pre-programed into the box. While we do switch to raw data for the approach, it is loaded in the FMS so that if you were to go missed the box will be there right with you and will sequence you to the missed approach. No hard thinking about the missed approach procedures b/c you would switch back from raw data to the FMS and the Flight Director will lead you around to the hold.

So, with that in mind. When we program the FMS with an approach, it will put an "No Link" inbetween the enroute instructions and the ILS approach. You can delete this "No Link" and the FMS will sequence you right to the approach after the last enroute instruction. Most pilots do not take this "No Link" because you are normally radar vectored to the final approach course and you dont want the autopilot to take you somewhere that the ATC is not telling you too.

So, if you did take out the "No Link" in the FMS and fall asleep enroute. The autopilot would be left in the NAV mode which is running off the FMS. When you got to the approach, it would track it but the tolerance would be less than if it was selected to "APR" (approach). The "APR" mode will just make it a tighter tolerance for good reason close to the ground but the NAV would certainly track the ILS.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

If no one was certified for SP, I think there is a CVR requirement. Maybe that will help them find cause

 

[gismo]

If no one was certified for SP, I think there is a CVR requirement. Maybe that will help them find cause

Can a CVR pick up the sounds of snoring?

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Can a CVR pick up the sounds of snoring?

I guess I am having a hard time imagining 4 people on board, and no one noticing the cp asleep.... or all 4 people asleep. Who knows what happened.

 

[Skip Miller]

I guess I am having a hard time imagining 4 people on board, and no one noticing the cp asleep.... or all 4 people asleep. Who knows what happened.

In a piston plane one would think of carbon monoxide. Is that a plausible threat in a Citation?

-Skip

 

[Everskyward]

In a piston plane one would think of carbon monoxide. Is that a plausible threat in a Citation?

I'm sure you can get smoke and fumes in the cabin in a Citation just like other business jets, then there's always the loss of pressurization. However, if any of these things happened I think ATC would have been suspicious because of the lack of response to radio calls and there hasn't been any mention of that.

 

[Bill]

then there's always the loss of pressurization.

Knowing nothing about the flight director type system that may be on that plane, but would it fly and execute the approach aytomatically without further input? I would assume they'd be getting vectors to final, and not going to an IAF and flying it without radar.

 

[poadeleted20]

In a piston plane one would think of carbon monoxide. Is that a plausible threat in a Citation?

Not really. The bleed air used to pressurize, air condition, and heat the cabin taps off the compressor section, forward of where the combustion occurs. While there are a number of ways to get various noxious fumes (primarily pyrolization products of oil or hydraulic fluid) in the cabin via the environmental systems, it would take a combination failures to put CO (produced in the combustor section and then ejected out the back) in there.