Cirrus vs Blackhawk

I just read about that finding. Pretty dramatic footage there. I'll be much more aware of helo prop wash going forward.
 
I've read some comments from helo pilots saying that there's no way rotor wash caused this. Blaming it on landing with a right rear crosswind. Lol! Yeah, 3 kts of crosswind is a killer!

I will say that there's a good chance that if an experienced pilot on the controls this accident would not have happened. No doubt though, the primary cause was rotor wash & vortices.
 
Velocity173 said:
I've read some comments from helo pilots saying that there's no way rotor wash caused this. Blaming it on landing with a right rear crosswind. Lol! Yeah, 3 kts of crosswind is a killer!

I will say that there's a good chance that if an experienced pilot on the controls this accident would not have happened. No doubt though, the primary cause was rotor wash & vortices.
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I seriously doubt it. The plane enters the picture a full 30 seconds after the helo leaves. The plane pulls nose up and immediately stalls the left wing. IMHO, he was going too slow for such a maneuver. The helo may have left some turbluance, but nothing that would have flipped the plane over, especially after 30 seconds.

JMHO. :rolleyes2:
 
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Geico266 said:
I seriously doubt it.
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So you believe 3 kts of crosswind caused this guy to flip over?

People don't understand the effects of rotor wash simply because they haven't been exposed to it. Even some of the pilots who generate that dangerous rotor wash don't understand the effects until it hits them in the face.

One night (long ago) I was on right downwind with a student to rwy 11 at OZR. A CH-47 entered the pattern on a left base up ahead of us. There was a light wind from the north and the 47 cut through final a bit. I thought this was a perfect opportunity for my student to experience what rotor wash from a larger aircraft can do. Even smiled to myself because I knew we'd get a good "thump" out of it. Anyway, about 30-45 secs later on base; bam! My student goes "holy s**t, what was that!" I laughed and said "that was him." He didn't believe me. Thought we had some mech malfunction. I have no doubt that if some Cirrus went through that, they'd be upside down in a heart beat.

As I said in the other thread, I got my butt chewed out over the radio at a civil airport one time because of my rotor wash. I had been at "flat pitch" 50 yards from the runway for a good minute; at least before the C-172 turned final. Pilot yelled at me, FBO yelled at me. Even an IP in a TH-67 overhead wanted my call sign to report me. I appoligized but I really thought I was being safe. Live and learn.
 
Velocity173 said:
So you believe 3 kts of crosswind caused this guy to flip over?

People don't understand the effects of rotor wash simply because they haven't been exposed to it. Even some of the pilots who generate that dangerous rotor wash don't understand the effects until it hits them in the face.

One night (long ago) I was on right downwind with a student to rwy 11 at OZR. A CH-47 entered the pattern on a left base up ahead of us. There was a light wind from the north and the 47 cut through final a bit. I thought this was a perfect opportunity for my student to experience what rotor wash from a larger aircraft can do. Even smiled to myself because I knew we'd get a good "thump" out of it. Anyway, about 30-45 secs later on base; bam! My student goes "holy s**t, what was that!" I laughed and said "that was him." He didn't believe me. Thought we had some mech malfunction. I have no doubt that if some Cirrus went through that, they'd be upside down in a heart beat.

As I said in the other thread, I got my butt chewed out over the radio at a civil airport one time because of my rotor wash. I had been at "flat pitch" 50 yards from the runway for a good minute; at least before the C-172 turned final. Pilot yelled at me, FBO yelled at me. Even an IP in a TH-67 overhead wanted my call sign to report me. I appoligized but I really thought I was being safe. Live and learn.
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That is not what I said.

The fixed wing pilot was going too slow if he pulled up the nose and the left wing stalled so quickly. The loss of control (pilot error) is from a stalled wing, not rotorwash pushing the right wing up. Had he been prepared for a go around and added power and remained level he would not have crashed.

After 30 seconds I just don't see the Blackhawk propwash being strong enough to flip the plane.

In any event, the fixed wing pilot should have been able to recognize an issue with the turbulence and taken appropriate action. That's how I see it. :dunno:
 
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Geico266 said:
That is not what I said.

The fixed wing pilot was going too slow if he pulled up the nose and the left wing stalled so quickly. The loss of control (pilot error) is from a stalled wing, not rotorwash pushing the right wing up. Had he been prepared for a go around and added power and remained level he would not have crashed.

After 30 seconds I just don't see the Blackhawk propwash being strong enough to flip the plane.

In any event, the fixed wing pilot should have been able to recognize an issue with the turbulence and taken appropriate action. That's how I see it. :dunno:
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Does the Cirrus have a tendency for a left wing drop during an arrival stall?

The only plausible scenario that I can see in a calm wind condition, is if this student powered up in the stall to do a go around. If that was the case, then yes, it's pilot error.

If this student had the throttle back at idle and in the flare for landing, I can't see a severe left wing drop and exiting the runway environment in calm winds.
 
Well having 310 hours in an SR20 I can say - there's a reason we call it an UPDT - under powered death trap... That thing will sink like a rock. It seems to me, based on the video that he pulled up and simply didnt have enough power... Maybe what was left over of the prop-wash convinced him to go-around but I think he panicked and pulled up.

Mcfly - no they do not have tendency to drop the left wing....

My vote is pilot error
 
EminiTrader said:
Well having 310 hours in an SR20 I can say - there's a reason we call it an UPDT - under powered death trap... That thing will sink like a rock. It seems to me, based on the video that he pulled up and simply didnt have enough power... Maybe what was left over of the prop-wash convinced him to go-around but I think he panicked and pulled up.

Mcfly - no they do not have tendency to drop the left wing....

My vote is pilot error
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Damn - i'm on my way to go fly a SR20 right now... :) Being inbetween airplanes stinks!! Can't get my new one quick enough.......
 
Are we just going to act like there isn't already a well developed thread on this in the Lessons learned Sub ?
 
NJP_MAN said:
Are we just going to act like there isn't already a well developed thread on this in the Lessons learned Sub ?
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Yes. Duplicate threads are the hallmark of POA.
 
I cant see a if it was a 47 maybe I think their could of been a little bump and overreaction to the stall...just two much time between the Blackhawk departure and landing....
 
Study done by the FAA almost 20 years ago.

6.3.4 Uncontrolled Airports.
Operations at uncontrolled airports present potential wake vortex hazards when rotorcraft are mixed with small fixed-wing traffic. Wake vortex problems have been noted when medium sized rotorcraft operate at airports where relatively low performance, light, single, and multi-engine general aviation aircraft are operating. Typical separation distances between light aircraft at uncontrolled fields can be as little as 3000 feet, roughly 30 seconds elapsed time at standard pattern airspeeds.
Medium weight helicopters, such as the S-76A and UH-1, can easily fit into the traffic pattern at smaller uncontrolled airports and can leave active, potentially hazardous vortices for up to 90 seconds. Separations for small aircraft behind these rotorcraft should therefore be in the 90- second range. Larger helicopters such as the CH-47D and CH-53E can also fit into these uncontrolled fields and were observed to have longer hazard times. A 120-second separation should be adequate for operations behind these rotorcraft. Likewise, takeoffs for small aircraft behind helicopters should use the same time as currently specified for operations at uncontrolled airports.
Information on the wake vortex hazard behind these rotorcraft, including delineation by class, should be included in the Airman's Information Manual and the Wake Vortex Advisory Circular.
6
 
Velocity173 said:
Study done by the FAA almost 20 years ago.

6.3.4 Uncontrolled Airports.
Operations at uncontrolled airports present potential wake vortex hazards when rotorcraft are mixed with small fixed-wing traffic. Wake vortex problems have been noted when medium sized rotorcraft operate at airports where relatively low performance, light, single, and multi-engine general aviation aircraft are operating. Typical separation distances between light aircraft at uncontrolled fields can be as little as 3000 feet, roughly 30 seconds elapsed time at standard pattern airspeeds.
Medium weight helicopters, such as the S-76A and UH-1, can easily fit into the traffic pattern at smaller uncontrolled airports and can leave active, potentially hazardous vortices for up to 90 seconds. Separations for small aircraft behind these rotorcraft should therefore be in the 90- second range. Larger helicopters such as the CH-47D and CH-53E can also fit into these uncontrolled fields and were observed to have longer hazard times. A 120-second separation should be adequate for operations behind these rotorcraft. Likewise, takeoffs for small aircraft behind helicopters should use the same time as currently specified for operations at uncontrolled airports.
Information on the wake vortex hazard behind these rotorcraft, including delineation by class, should be included in the Airman's Information Manual and the Wake Vortex Advisory Circular.
6
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We flew Apache's at around 20,000 pounds in training and I know most H model Huey's normally grossed around 8500 (9500 Max)...Cobras at 10,000, Never rated in a Blackhawk but flew a few at Eustice, but isn't their max gross over 20,000 pounds....sure was a lot less than 90 seconds...
 
Warlock said:
We flew Apache's at around 20,000 pounds in training and I know most H model Huey's normally grossed around 8500 (9500 Max)...Cobras at 10,000, Never rated in a Blackhawk but flew a few at Eustice, but isn't their max gross over 20,000 pounds....sure was a lot less than 90 seconds...
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Yeah, 22,000. In some configurations 24,500. The one in the accident was maybe 15,000.
 
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