Cirrus SR22 vs. Vans RV-10

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by WannFly, May 24, 2020.

  1. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson En-Route

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    Just to be clear with the doors; I wouldn’t consider them a compromise or less than desirable. It’s just that the original latch design wasn’t up to the task. It was deeply flawed. The aftermarket latch from Plane Around is positive and secure (I assume the updated Vans design is good too but don’t know). In any case, the gull wing doors are a positive in my experience. Though many operators won’t do it, I will taxi with one or both doors completely open for ventilation when needed, i.e. sitting in a departure conga line at Oshkosh after an accident. Very handy and a nice perch to look around from.


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  2. kyleb

    kyleb Final Approach

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    A front hinged door like on most GA aircraft or a somewhat front hinged door like a Cirrus will blow (mostly) closed if it comes unlatched. The RV's door will depart the airplane if it comes unlatched. I'm of the opinion that something as simple as a door shouldn't have the opportunity to create a safety of flight issue. (One door departed the airplane and hit the horizontal stab, buckling the fuselage - the airplane was flyable, but wow.)
     
  3. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

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  4. Adam Weiss

    Adam Weiss Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Yes, around 1100 lbs
     
  5. tspear

    tspear Pattern Altitude

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    I wonder if the insurance issue has changed. A couple years ago, RV was one of the few models you could get liability on; but even then you could not get 1m smooth.
    Has this changed?

    Tim
     
  6. WannFly

    WannFly Final Approach

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    i inquired about -10 insurance last year, my coverage was exactly the same as my certificated one, only higher since the build price / hull value was much higher. quoted from Old Republic
     
  7. tspear

    tspear Pattern Altitude

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    This was two/three years ago. And I know the market has had a fair number of changes since then.

    Tim
     
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  8. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson En-Route

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    An (old?)Cessna control lock will prevent control of the aircraft if not removed before flight and likely result in a crash.

    An unlatched RV10 door will be ripped off and likely damage the stab and perhaps result in a crash.

    I flew for a number of years with the original latching mechanism. The problem was not the orientation of the door but rather the ability to actuate the latch, have it in the lock position and yet have the door remain partially unlatched such that it wouldn’t depart the aircraft until after takeoff. THIS WAS A SERIOUS DEFECT.

    In fact, I made this mistake once but grabbed the door during rotation and held it in place until landing, so there’s that.

    The new latch I installed (Planearound as I recall) does not allow the door latch to be actuated without the door truly being latched. The door is either open and unlatched or closed and securely latched. No middle ground. Very unlike a Cessna door where takeoffs with an unlatched door occur regularly because it’s hard to tell it’s not latched until in the air. But of course the door will remain on the airplanes whether latch or unlatched and that’s a good thing.

    But so is a door that can’t ‘fake’ being secured. The ‘10 door is now quite clearly open or latched. An unlatched door is obvious even sitting still with engine at idle or power off.

    The only remaining issue is that a passenger could, if so inclined, deliberately unlatch the door in flight and that could be catastrophic. That’s a real possibility.

    Otherwise, I just don’t think it is any longer an issue. The insurance companies seem to agree but that’s just conjecture based on recent posts.

    BUT BUYERS BEWARE, ASSUME THERE ARE STILL RV10s OUT THERE WITH THE ORIGINAL LATCH. THERE ARE NO ADs ON EXPERIMENTAL AC (are there?)


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  9. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    I’ve never had a single problem knowing a Cessna door was latched. You lean on it a little with your seat belt on to check it.

    Guess someone taught me that so long ago I just do it naturally and don’t even think about it anymore.

    I’ve only ever had one open in flight and I knew I didn’t latch it at all. Passenger side and I was solo. I had opened it on the ramp for some dumb reason.

    But of course they just pop open an inch or so and get stuck there by the air stream. A non-event. Makes a little noise.

    Most instructors purposefully pop one open at some point to demo in flight distractions and how to prioritize and handle them, to students.

    Not really germane to your RV conversation but they’re not difficult to check and it becomes habit if taught.

    The only times that check has caught anything, the door was severely mis-aligned and needed shimming. Getting it latched was a chore.

    Typical rental where people open the doors and let the wind catch them and fling them forward, bending things and causing damage. Careless.
     
  10. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson En-Route

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    Classic. You apparently did have a single problem knowing a Cessna door was latched. And it’s actually quite germane to all flying.

    In my case I had gotten in the habit of checking door security as a ‘pre-takeoff checklist item’, except my pre-takeoff checklist would typically be completed after run-up, then just before takeoff I would routinely ask my passenger to check their latch and I would visually confirm closure, then I would do a final check on my door which may or may not be unlatched for ventilation purposes. I started doing that from the maiden flight forward.

    It became so habitual that I just did it naturally and didn’t even thing about it anymore. After all, the door latch was flawed and the check was absolutely mandatory.

    Well after the first 4 or 5 years of flying with my wife beside me on 99% of my flights, my door incident occurred on a 1% flight when she wasn’t there. I had closed and double checked her door on the ramp since she wasn’t there. I ran through my checklist but didn’t do the oh so natural last check before taking the runway since her door had been checked on the ramp and with the seat empty it broke up my execution of that natural habit of doing the final check on my door. That how that stuff happens; a distraction, a break in routine, natural habits beyond the checklist, etc.

    When I was training in Cessnas many years ago, I recall the standard method of closing the door was the well calibrated slam. And if the right seat was unoccupied, the door could appear to be latched but it would only become apparent sometime after takeoff.

    Yes my instructor left his unlatched once to give me the experience as well.






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  11. jsstevens

    jsstevens Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    In a 1963 C-172C you can easily unlatch the door with your elbow. Especially if you turn around to talk to the back seat passenger. (My then 13 yo daughter's friend did so shortly after takeoff from Sebastian (X26). I told her it wouldn't open wide and to just be calm (and she was). We landed at Valkaria (X59) ~8 miles up the coast because they'd just dropped a load of sky divers over Sebastian and I didn't want to mess with that. Closed and latched the door and then flew home without further drama.

    I also landed a C-172P after flying from Gainesville (KGNV) to Orlando (KORL) and when I opened the pilot side door it sagged a bunch because the lower hinge pin was gone. :eek: Fell out somewhere between closing the door in Gainesville and opening it in Orlando.

    John
     
  12. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Dissertations are usually available to the public but I don't know about undergrad papers. On the other hand, if presented at a conference, probably in the conference proceedings. Got a title & author, possibly the conference & date? Would like to read thru it.
     
  13. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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  14. Shepherd

    Shepherd En-Route

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    I'll ask him about it. He's a reasonable guy.
     
  15. Anthony

    Anthony Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I'd much rather have the RV-10.
     
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  16. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Obviously a personal choice, but I'm not sure I would pick the same.
     
  17. flyboyrv6

    flyboyrv6 Filing Flight Plan

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    If you are considering an RV10...or any RV, be very careful! There is no going back to a Cessna, Piper, SR or any production aircraft after you have flown an RV. I have flown an RV6 for 16 years and recently flew a Warrior after not having flown one for over 16 years and was amazed how heavy and unresponsive the controls are.