Cirrus SR22 vs. Vans RV-10

kyleb said:
There are compromises everywhere. The two inherent in the Velocity are a lack of short field or slow speed capability and prop damage due to FOD kicked up by the wheels. The compromises in the RV-10 are that it is not as fast as it could be (the old high vs slow speed compromise) and the doors. Efficiency too, compared to the Velocity. What's the useful load on the Velocity? Most RV-10's are 1000-1100 lbs.
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Just to be clear with the doors; I wouldn’t consider them a compromise or less than desirable. It’s just that the original latch design wasn’t up to the task. It was deeply flawed. The aftermarket latch from Plane Around is positive and secure (I assume the updated Vans design is good too but don’t know). In any case, the gull wing doors are a positive in my experience. Though many operators won’t do it, I will taxi with one or both doors completely open for ventilation when needed, i.e. sitting in a departure conga line at Oshkosh after an accident. Very handy and a nice perch to look around from.


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Bill Watson said:
Just to be clear with the doors; I wouldn’t consider them a compromise or less than desirable.
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A front hinged door like on most GA aircraft or a somewhat front hinged door like a Cirrus will blow (mostly) closed if it comes unlatched. The RV's door will depart the airplane if it comes unlatched. I'm of the opinion that something as simple as a door shouldn't have the opportunity to create a safety of flight issue. (One door departed the airplane and hit the horizontal stab, buckling the fuselage - the airplane was flyable, but wow.)
 
I wonder if the insurance issue has changed. A couple years ago, RV was one of the few models you could get liability on; but even then you could not get 1m smooth.
Has this changed?

Tim
 
tspear said:
I wonder if the insurance issue has changed. A couple years ago, RV was one of the few models you could get liability on; but even then you could not get 1m smooth.
Has this changed?

Tim
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i inquired about -10 insurance last year, my coverage was exactly the same as my certificated one, only higher since the build price / hull value was much higher. quoted from Old Republic
 
WannFly said:
i inquired about -10 insurance last year, my coverage was exactly the same as my certificated one, only higher since the build price / hull value was much higher. quoted from Old Republic
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This was two/three years ago. And I know the market has had a fair number of changes since then.

Tim
 
kyleb said:
A front hinged door like on most GA aircraft or a somewhat front hinged door like a Cirrus will blow (mostly) closed if it comes unlatched. The RV's door will depart the airplane if it comes unlatched. I'm of the opinion that something as simple as a door shouldn't have the opportunity to create a safety of flight issue. (One door departed the airplane and hit the horizontal stab, buckling the fuselage - the airplane was flyable, but wow.)
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An (old?)Cessna control lock will prevent control of the aircraft if not removed before flight and likely result in a crash.

An unlatched RV10 door will be ripped off and likely damage the stab and perhaps result in a crash.

I flew for a number of years with the original latching mechanism. The problem was not the orientation of the door but rather the ability to actuate the latch, have it in the lock position and yet have the door remain partially unlatched such that it wouldn’t depart the aircraft until after takeoff. THIS WAS A SERIOUS DEFECT.

In fact, I made this mistake once but grabbed the door during rotation and held it in place until landing, so there’s that.

The new latch I installed (Planearound as I recall) does not allow the door latch to be actuated without the door truly being latched. The door is either open and unlatched or closed and securely latched. No middle ground. Very unlike a Cessna door where takeoffs with an unlatched door occur regularly because it’s hard to tell it’s not latched until in the air. But of course the door will remain on the airplanes whether latch or unlatched and that’s a good thing.

But so is a door that can’t ‘fake’ being secured. The ‘10 door is now quite clearly open or latched. An unlatched door is obvious even sitting still with engine at idle or power off.

The only remaining issue is that a passenger could, if so inclined, deliberately unlatch the door in flight and that could be catastrophic. That’s a real possibility.

Otherwise, I just don’t think it is any longer an issue. The insurance companies seem to agree but that’s just conjecture based on recent posts.

BUT BUYERS BEWARE, ASSUME THERE ARE STILL RV10s OUT THERE WITH THE ORIGINAL LATCH. THERE ARE NO ADs ON EXPERIMENTAL AC (are there?)


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Bill Watson said:
Very unlike a Cessna door where takeoffs with an unlatched door occur regularly because it’s hard to tell it’s not latched until in the air.
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I’ve never had a single problem knowing a Cessna door was latched. You lean on it a little with your seat belt on to check it.

Guess someone taught me that so long ago I just do it naturally and don’t even think about it anymore.

I’ve only ever had one open in flight and I knew I didn’t latch it at all. Passenger side and I was solo. I had opened it on the ramp for some dumb reason.

But of course they just pop open an inch or so and get stuck there by the air stream. A non-event. Makes a little noise.

Most instructors purposefully pop one open at some point to demo in flight distractions and how to prioritize and handle them, to students.

Not really germane to your RV conversation but they’re not difficult to check and it becomes habit if taught.

The only times that check has caught anything, the door was severely mis-aligned and needed shimming. Getting it latched was a chore.

Typical rental where people open the doors and let the wind catch them and fling them forward, bending things and causing damage. Careless.
 
denverpilot said:
I’ve never had a single problem knowing a Cessna door was latched. You lean on it a little with your seat belt on to check it.

Guess someone taught me that so long ago I just do it naturally and don’t even think about it anymore.

I’ve only ever had one open in flight and I knew I didn’t latch it at all. Passenger side and I was solo. I had opened it on the ramp for some dumb reason.
.....
Not really germane to your RV conversation but they’re not difficult to check and it becomes habit if taught.
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Classic. You apparently did have a single problem knowing a Cessna door was latched. And it’s actually quite germane to all flying.

In my case I had gotten in the habit of checking door security as a ‘pre-takeoff checklist item’, except my pre-takeoff checklist would typically be completed after run-up, then just before takeoff I would routinely ask my passenger to check their latch and I would visually confirm closure, then I would do a final check on my door which may or may not be unlatched for ventilation purposes. I started doing that from the maiden flight forward.

It became so habitual that I just did it naturally and didn’t even thing about it anymore. After all, the door latch was flawed and the check was absolutely mandatory.

Well after the first 4 or 5 years of flying with my wife beside me on 99% of my flights, my door incident occurred on a 1% flight when she wasn’t there. I had closed and double checked her door on the ramp since she wasn’t there. I ran through my checklist but didn’t do the oh so natural last check before taking the runway since her door had been checked on the ramp and with the seat empty it broke up my execution of that natural habit of doing the final check on my door. That how that stuff happens; a distraction, a break in routine, natural habits beyond the checklist, etc.

When I was training in Cessnas many years ago, I recall the standard method of closing the door was the well calibrated slam. And if the right seat was unoccupied, the door could appear to be latched but it would only become apparent sometime after takeoff.

Yes my instructor left his unlatched once to give me the experience as well.






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In a 1963 C-172C you can easily unlatch the door with your elbow. Especially if you turn around to talk to the back seat passenger. (My then 13 yo daughter's friend did so shortly after takeoff from Sebastian (X26). I told her it wouldn't open wide and to just be calm (and she was). We landed at Valkaria (X59) ~8 miles up the coast because they'd just dropped a load of sky divers over Sebastian and I didn't want to mess with that. Closed and latched the door and then flew home without further drama.

I also landed a C-172P after flying from Gainesville (KGNV) to Orlando (KORL) and when I opened the pilot side door it sagged a bunch because the lower hinge pin was gone. :eek: Fell out somewhere between closing the door in Gainesville and opening it in Orlando.

John
 
Shepherd said:
One of the young bucks at the airport is working on a PhD in Aeronautical Engineering. One of his undergraduate projects was to analyze the air frame design of a GA aircraft.
He picked the SR-22.
His final paper had one statement I found to be very interesting. "The rear fuselage needs to be 9 inches longer to provide better/safer performance and stability."
The rest is a lot of math. He did not use the statement "It's obvious to the casual observer that....". It wasn't. Not to me.
I assume he must have been correct in his assessment, as he got an A+ on the paper, and was asked to present his work at some conference.
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Dissertations are usually available to the public but I don't know about undergrad papers. On the other hand, if presented at a conference, probably in the conference proceedings. Got a title & author, possibly the conference & date? Would like to read thru it.
 
murphey said:
Dissertations are usually available to the public but I don't know about undergrad papers. On the other hand, if presented at a conference, probably in the conference proceedings. Got a title & author, possibly the conference & date? Would like to read thru it.
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I'll ask him about it. He's a reasonable guy.
 
If you are considering an RV10...or any RV, be very careful! There is no going back to a Cessna, Piper, SR or any production aircraft after you have flown an RV. I have flown an RV6 for 16 years and recently flew a Warrior after not having flown one for over 16 years and was amazed how heavy and unresponsive the controls are.
 
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