Cirrus SR20 transitiona

I found that my old cirrus would slow down very fast if I pulled power and pitched up a little....

Or learn how to do an overhead break :D To compete with the RV flyers.

CISP gets mad if I pull power. He wants 10% reduction at a time so I don't cool the engine too quickly. but 45% and it keeps trucking along at 140 kts. He said 40% as we enter downwind. So I flew my dw leg at 120 kts 40% power.

I am going to start slowing down even sooner so I can be at 100 kts before entering the pattern.
 
CISP gets mad if I pull power. He wants 10% reduction at a time so I don't cool the engine too quickly. but 45% and it keeps trucking along at 140 kts. He said 40% as we enter downwind. So I flew my dw leg at 120 kts 40% power.

I am going to start slowing down even sooner so I can be at 100 kts before entering the pattern.

He's an idiot, start pulling power 10 minutes early then so you can fly a short final at 10%-idle as required. You are not going to cause a cooling problem chopping the power as required coming into the pattern.
 
CISP gets mad if I pull power. He wants 10% reduction at a time so I don't cool the engine too quickly. but 45% and it keeps trucking along at 140 kts. He said 40% as we enter downwind. So I flew my dw leg at 120 kts 40% power.

I am going to start slowing down even sooner so I can be at 100 kts before entering the pattern.
That's not a bad plan, but unless you're behind a turbocharged engine (and I don't think Cirrus makes a SR20T), it's not necessary. Going from normal 65-75% cruise straight to 35-50% for the descent isn't going to hurt that IO-360 in the SR20.
 
That's not a bad plan, but unless you're behind a turbocharged engine (and I don't think Cirrus makes a SR20T), it's not necessary. Going from normal 65-75% cruise straight to 35-50% for the descent isn't going to hurt that IO-360 in the SR20.

It is not a Turbo but this is the 550 (310 HP) not sure if that makes a difference.
 
CISP gets mad if I pull power. He wants 10% reduction at a time so I don't cool the engine too quickly. but 45% and it keeps trucking along at 140 kts. He said 40% as we enter downwind. So I flew my dw leg at 120 kts 40% power.

I am going to start slowing down even sooner so I can be at 100 kts before entering the pattern.

It's all about your CHT's!!!! Keep your CHT's below 380 for take off, step climb is necessary, and 360 during all other phases of flight. If you do this, then pulling power will not affect the engine. I only ran LOP, hottest temp I ever saw was 390 when leaving Savannah, GA when it was over 100 out. I was stuck on the ground idling.

Texas heat can be a ***** in the summer, so sometimes I would kill the engine on the ground while waiting to taxi. Tip #1, learn how to hot start your engine... It's easy once you get it down. Mine liked: ZERO mixture; boost pump on max for 5 seconds; then left on; Throttle opened to 3/4 position; turn key and engine will spark; do the throttle mixture dance :D

My plane had over 1200 hours on it when I bought it, it was used @ WMU for flight training before I got it. It was always flown with pulling power to slow her down. I put an additional 250 on it. WMU nor I ever did engine work to it, minus routine stuff.

Again, key is CHT's. If you get them over 400, then you need to baby them on the way down... step descend as needed.

You can see my planes logs, the ones I entered anyways, here. http://www.cirrusreports.com/flights/N48TG/

You can join the site and import your data.
 
He wouldn't let me reduce power anymore on downwind but I was going too fast so he had me pitch up to get to 119 for 50% flaps. In doing so, I climbed to 2500 feet in a 1400 TPA. So I hit that mark abeam the numbers but was way high.

Turned base, reduced to 35% added full flaps and dove at the numbers. I got to 80 kts 1/8 mi final, pulled power, and squeaked it on.

He does a lot of things his way and they don't always agree w/ the book.
 
He wouldn't let me reduce power anymore on downwind but I was going too fast so he had me pitch up to get to 119 for 50% flaps. In doing so, I climbed to 2500 feet in a 1400 TPA. So I hit that mark abeam the numbers but was way high.

Turned base, reduced to 35% added full flaps and dove at the numbers. I got to 80 kts 1/8 mi final, pulled power, and squeaked it on.

He does a lot of things his way and they don't always agree w/ the book.
If that's his idea of the way to fly the traffic pattern, I'd suggest finding another instructor.
 
Sounds like he's making the power reductions a lot more complicated than they need to be. Just go nice and easy on the reductions and you should be fine.

Do they teach running LOP in the SR22?
 
Sounds like he's making the power reductions a lot more complicated than they need to be. Just go nice and easy on the reductions and you should be fine.

Do they teach running LOP in the SR22?

He has us running lean of peak using the lean assist function on the Avidyne targeting "Best Economy".
 
It is not a Turbo but this is the 550 (310 HP) not sure if that makes a difference.

Nope, you have no cooling problem taking it from cruise, cutting the power to idle and making a descent. The whole cooling thing is an OWT, BTW, what does the POH restrict you to? The most important to your engine in regards to application and reduction of power is to do it smoothly and not too sharply, 3 seconds to full throttle is nice. Pulling back the power is the same, one extra issue is having the prop drive the engine. This is the second most destructive force on the engine because it stretches on the rod bolts, the first most destructive is excess CHT, but that just costs you cylinders, rod bolts cost you a catastrophic in flight failure of the bottom end.

If I'm coming in smoking hot, I'll chop the power and pull 2gs with a steep S turn set to scrub off my energy, get in gear and flaps then get some throttle back in it. The engine doesn't cool appreciably in those 15 seconds.
 
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Blowing through the TPA of jets is not cool. The % power is great for IFR, when you start your decent 30-40 miles out. Not 10 miles out. Flying with my new born, I would decend at 500 FPM. % power was great for that pattern work. When no kids , I would decent at 170-180 kts then slow down for the pattern.

Man, I need to retire. I cannot wait! I will be buying my next Cirrus when I do
 
He does a lot of things his way and they don't always agree w/ the book.

The whole point of the CSIP program was to standardize.

Here's what a CSIP is supposed to teach re: speeds and power settings in an SR22:

3644.FOM_2D00_traffic-pattern-speeds.png
 
The whole point of the CSIP program was to standardize.

Here's what a CSIP is supposed to teach re: speeds and power settings in an SR22:

3644.FOM_2D00_traffic-pattern-speeds.png

Hmmm, why...Ohhh, CPS has image linking blocked. That's pattern speed and flaps, but what does it say about power management and reduction?
 
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Can everyone see that?

If not, I can do a screen shot and post that.

In any case, power settings are in the upper right.

I tried to fly final high enough that "As Required" meant coming back to idle at some point. I always tried to be at idle by 50' at the latest, and my landings were pretty consistent.

I don't seem to have any videos of me landing a Cirrus.

Here's one of my students doing an excellent job:

http://youtu.be/XR4OBrYTRrA
 
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Can everyone see that?

If not, I can do a screen shot and post that.

In any case, power settings are in the upper right.

I tried to fly final high enough that "As Required" meant coming back to idle at some point. I always tried to be at idle by 50' at the latest, and my landings were pretty consistent.

I don't seem to have any videos of me landing a Cirrus.

Here's one of my students doing an excellent job:

http://youtu.be/XR4OBrYTRrA

Huh, now it shows in both.:dunno:

So apparently Cirrus has no problem with a 25% cut.
 
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The composite prop on the turbo is a big air break! That is why they do not need actual air breaks like Cessna TTx and Mooney.
 
Again, suggested power settings are in a table at the upper right.

My guess is that the slightly higher power settings for the turbo are due to the increased drag from the composite prop.

50% power on the downwind in a turbo SR22, 155 hp or so? Wow. Something doesn't sound quite right.
 
From an SR22 owner who's got recent experience in 172, 182, PA32, DA40...

* Yoke spring loading makes me feel isolated from the plane, due to lack of feel...sort of like 1970's power steering. Yoke feels the same on taxi or near stall.

* Unforgiving...Nail your approach speed every time! 80 knots final, 77 short final (per POH).

* Speed means everything happen faster.

* All the gizmo's that increase safety also increase the potential for distractions. I find I'm busy most of the time, but I monitor everything. Force yourself to keep eyes out of the window.

The Cirrus Transition Training is mandatory in my book.

Everytime I get back in a 172 or PA32 I remember how easy flying can be. But I'm glad I purchased an SR22. The safety record is now at the top of GA, and the plane is fast, economical ( under 12 gph at 170 knots lean of peak), beautiful, and roomy (center console means no more rubbing shoulders with your co-pilot.

And then there's the safety of the parachute...icing on the cake!
 
No, it doesn't, does it. Why does this thing have a "monster high drag prop"?:dunno:

Anybody got a reference for an explanation of why a prop at low speed, but still pulling the plane, would have unusually high drag. Sounds really inefficient...
 
Anybody got a reference for an explanation of why a prop at low speed, but still pulling the plane, would have unusually high drag. Sounds really inefficient...

Yep, something didn't make sense there.:confused:
 
VWGhiaBob,
I can honestly say my experience is 180 degrees from yours, not that I'm trying to say you are wrong. I'm just adding my experience.
I prefer the side yoke to all others, THAT I HAVE FLOWN. Please note that I have not flown every plane in existence, nor am I an expert! I prefer Cirrus over the Da 40, RV-10, piper and cessna products.

I actually thought the Cirrus was the easiest, most forgiving, and most comfortable to fly. Things I don't like about Cirrus, twitchy trim, no opening windows, no utility category. Please add these and I would say it is the best 4 seater out there.
 
VWGhiaBob,
I can honestly say my experience is 180 degrees from yours, not that I'm trying to say you are wrong. I'm just adding my experience.
I prefer the side yoke to all others, THAT I HAVE FLOWN. Please note that I have not flown every plane in existence, nor am I an expert! I prefer Cirrus over the Da 40, RV-10, piper and cessna products.

I actually thought the Cirrus was the easiest, most forgiving, and most comfortable to fly. Things I don't like about Cirrus, twitchy trim, no opening windows, no utility category. Please add these and I would say it is the best 4 seater out there.

Out of curiosity, why is Utility Category important to you? How often do you approach 3.8G?
 
To each his own, John. But I think advising a newcomer that a Cirrus is easy to fly is, well, not advised. The Cirrus accident statistics pretty much proved the point. Until one receives comprehensive transition training, the Cirrus can be dangerous. The numbers don't lie.

I know a 500 hour pilot in his own SR20. Just once he landed a tad too fast and busted the front gear / prop strike / engine rebuild.

Cirrus planes are sensitive. One of my instructor stated that it's very similar to a Hawker jet, which requires much more experience.

So my advice to the original poster: From someone who owns one and flies lots of other planes, treat Cirrus planes with respect. Don't let the fact that they seem easy to fly lull you in to a false sense of security. Get official Cirrus training now, and then at least once a year. Only then will you reap the benefits of the full safety of this plane.

VWGhiaBob,
I can honestly say my experience is 180 degrees from yours, not that I'm trying to say you are wrong. I'm just adding my experience.
I prefer the side yoke to all others, THAT I HAVE FLOWN. Please note that I have not flown every plane in existence, nor am I an expert! I prefer Cirrus over the Da 40, RV-10, piper and cessna products.

I actually thought the Cirrus was the easiest, most forgiving, and most comfortable to fly. Things I don't like about Cirrus, twitchy trim, no opening windows, no utility category. Please add these and I would say it is the best 4 seater out there.
 
I agree on the trim hat.
At 170 kts, it is impossible to dial in. one tap and you are rolling, Tap the other rirection, and you are rolling the other way.

At 135kts, it is much easier to dial in.
At higher speeds, I deal with it and eventually I will let the AP deal with it.
Hand flying for now.
 
I agree on the trim hat.
At 170 kts, it is impossible to dial in. one tap and you are rolling, Tap the other rirection, and you are rolling the other way.

At 135kts, it is much easier to dial in.
At higher speeds, I deal with it and eventually I will let the AP deal with it.
Hand flying for now.

No tap, just a flick.
 
Why do you need utility category for that? You do need an emergency egress system IIRC.

You cannot loop or roll the cirrus right now. Also, if you have BRS would that work to satisfy the FAA regulations? This would have to be addressed if Cirrus went for utility certification.
 
You cannot loop or roll the cirrus right now. Also, if you have BRS would that work to satisfy the FAA regulations? This would have to be addressed if Cirrus went for utility certification.

I'm missing where Utility certification alone allows loops and rolls.:dunno:
 
I'm missing where Utility certification alone allows loops and rolls.:dunno:

F-sake. As smart as you proclaim to be, and you cannot put 2 and 2 together? :D sometimes you make me scared for humanity.
 
additional thoughts on the '20.
Its much harder to taxi than to fly. You do need to be positive & ahead of the aircraft to maintain directional control; especially when taxiing slowly. It's fine once you have a few knots of speed, but be prepared to stab the inside brake hard to start a turn, and make sure you line the nose wheel up before you stop.
The '22 needs a dash of right brake applying t/o power, but the 20 is tame.

The sidestick is entirely natural. I've read all sorts about it being impossible to trim. in my experience it's entirely natural and instinctive, though moving to an electric trim from a manual wheel could be more trying.

There is plenty of warning when you're slow, granted, the control design does reduce some feedback, but the controls still loose responsiveness as the speed bleeds. It's how the aircraft was built, so you have to learn the sensations.

The 20's have adequate power. They're very responsive the throttle inputs. The 22's have loads of power. Power reduction on crosswind (you'll be at TPA on the upwind if you're not careful!) is significant & can unnerve PAX. -100% to 40% keeps you at book speeds turning Downwind.

I like the VFE 50% of 150 in the G5. they're not hard to slow, but it's easy to exceed the 119 VFE in the G3 if you're behind the bird on Base.

Landings. Firstly, NOT flat. same deck angle as a Cessna. it just looks flatter because the console is lower.

Secondly, and this is where i feel the need to speak out; the Elevators are (comparatively) small.
Rotation from descent to roundout requires more careful energy management than other a/c i've flown. i regularly hit the stops holding the nose off. Running out of elevator authority is something to very careful of.

Yesterday landing in a beautiful >20k crosswind at HPN i ran out of Aileron. Granted, i'm flying from the right seat and the 'left wing down' wrist rotation is akin to an arm wrestle move, but i had full left in, and banging on the control stops. There was plenty of rudder authority left.
I'm used to running out of rudder and having to use differential power in larger twins, but this was the firs time i'd run out of Roll. I'm obliged to note that xwind is not a limitation per se, but a maximum demonstrated during certification.
-And yesterday at White Plains :)

Lovely Plane. Check the doors are latched fully, learn the electrical system and have fun. it's a very capable platform. Get some time in the Perspective G5 if you can. Smashing ride!
cheers
neilki
 
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If you are demonstrating a short field take off, you can eliminate those stabs on the right brake by aligning slightly right off the runway heading. Usually it's around 10°. You want to find the point where with full right rudder it will catch the swing to the left as it comes into alignment with the runway without touching the brake.

If you are not demonstrating short field technique, you should limit your application of throttle to a rate that can be controlled with the rudder alone. IOW, don't put the throttle in so fast.

With twins that don't have counter rotating props I push the left throttle forward with the tip of my thumb and let the right throttle catch in the webbing as I push forward so I lead acceleration with the left engine to control the pull.
 
If you are demonstrating a short field take off, you can eliminate those stabs on the right brake by aligning slightly right off the runway heading. Usually it's around 10°.
We've been teaching that for Grummans in the AYA PFP for decades. Works just as well in Diamonds and Cirri, too. Alternatively, hold the brakes while you advance to 1800 RPM, and then release brakes -- you'll have enough prop-driven air over the rudder to control the yaw with rudder only right from brake release, and it will give you the opportunity to check the engine gauges one last time at run-up power before releasing brakes.
 
He wouldn't let me reduce power anymore on downwind but I was going too fast so he had me pitch up to get to 119 for 50% flaps. In doing so, I climbed to 2500 feet in a 1400 TPA. So I hit that mark abeam the numbers but was way high.

Turned base, reduced to 35% added full flaps and dove at the numbers. I got to 80 kts 1/8 mi final, pulled power, and squeaked it on.

He does a lot of things his way and they don't always agree w/ the book.

i'm going to agree very strongly with Ron's advice. You need to find another instructor. In my experience when an instructor is this far off base the only fix is getting a new instructor.
 
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