Cirrus or Lance?

SCCutler said:
The differences rate is not, in itself, any indication of a bad plane; it is a reflection of the fact that the Cirri are brand new and expensive airframes.

Post a little more about how the Lance is equipped.
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I think Pistol Pete has seen it before me! Pistol, tell us more!
 
spiderweb said:
SR20 $215
PA32 $189
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I have no clue about SR20 rates, but that doesn't seem too terribly low for a PA32. When they are available to rent, I typically see them in the $190-215/hr range wet. SR22s tend to rent for $250-280/hr.

The insurance bill could very well be the reason the SR20 is higher.
 
spiderweb said:
And this is the same school we're talking about, right?
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At this point, I believe so!

spiderweb said:
I think Pistol Pete has seen it before me! Pistol, tell us more!
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Well, they had a really nice Cardinal parked in the spot. Then one day, I showed up for my checkride and there was the Lance parked there. I actually couldn't figure out what it was since it looked like a Cherokee with retractable gear. I did some more research on that subject and landed at the Lance. Then I asked my instructor if that was the school's new Lance, and she said yes.

I haven't gotten a chance to fly it (it'll be a while before I do); but, I snooped around the plane the day it was parked there. I'm nosy. Looks in good shape. Most planes at the school are. I saw it's now listed on the website along with the new 182T. It's been a while since the school has had a complex aircraft. My instructor seemed excited about it.

Looks like it'd be a great aircraft to take a bunch of your pals on a fishing trip with.
 
spiderweb said:
SR20 $215
PA32 $189
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$215 for an SR20? :hairraise:

I know the insurance is expensive, but for a bird that's pretty comparable to a DA40, and the fact that DA40's usually rent for around $160/hr wet... $215 is a lot.

I don't think $189/hr is disturbingly low for a Lance.

I would tend to lean towards the Lance if you're going to pick one or the other. That does, however, depend on how well it's equipped - IFR GPS and autopilot, minimum. Does the SR20 have datalink weather on the Perspective? That'd be another thing that'd make me lean towards the Cirrus, unless you have an iPad/Stratus, a 496, or some other portable datalink weather device.

So, if the Lance is decently-equipped, that's where I'd go if I thought I could only stay proficient in one of them. While you won't have the whiz-bang of the glass panel, you'll be able to fulfill a wider range of missions with the Lance. Like someone said, you can take the entire quartet somewhere in it!
 
Fearless Tower said:
I have no clue about SR20 rates, but that doesn't seem too terribly low for a PA32. When they are available to rent, I typically see them in the $190-215/hr range wet. SR22s tend to rent for $250-280/hr.

The insurance bill could very well be the reason the SR20 is higher.
Click to expand...

The Cirri at this flight school are nearly new. I'm sure the insurance is higher on the PA32, since it is a six-seat retract, but it also has to be a 20+ year-old airframe, so cheaper purchase price.
 
HerrGruyere said:
At this point, I believe so!



Well, they had a really nice Cardinal parked in the spot. Then one day, I showed up for my checkride and there was the Lance parked there. I actually couldn't figure out what it was since it looked like a Cherokee with retractable gear. I did some more research on that subject and landed at the Lance. Then I asked my instructor if that was the school's new Lance, and she said yes.

I haven't gotten a chance to fly it (it'll be a while before I do); but, I snooped around the plane the day it was parked there. I'm nosy. Looks in good shape. Most planes at the school are. I saw it's now listed on the website along with the new 182T. It's been a while since the school has had a complex aircraft. My instructor seemed excited about it.

Looks like it'd be a great aircraft to take a bunch of your pals on a fishing trip with.
Click to expand...

Yep, we're talking about the same place! Maybe we'll cross paths sometime!

I've got 50 + hours in the Saratoga, which is the next-gen Lance. Did you notice what the panel was like? I think that's going to decide it for me.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
$215 for an SR20? :hairraise:

I know the insurance is expensive, but for a bird that's pretty comparable to a DA40, and the fact that DA40's usually rent for around $160/hr wet... $215 is a lot.
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It really isn't. Someone once posted rates for rental a range of Cirri, and they went into the $400s Bear in mind, these were purchased brand new, and are only a few years old. And the rate is wet.

flyingcheesehead said:
I don't think $189/hr is disturbingly low for a Lance.

I would tend to lean towards the Lance if you're going to pick one or the other. That does, however, depend on how well it's equipped - IFR GPS and autopilot, minimum. Does the SR20 have datalink weather on the Perspective?
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Yes, and it has traffic and SVT, and a whole lot of things the Lance probably doesn't have.

flyingcheesehead said:
That'd be another thing that'd make me lean towards the Cirrus, unless you have an iPad/Stratus, a 496, or some other portable datalink weather device.

So, if the Lance is decently-equipped, that's where I'd go if I thought I could only stay proficient in one of them. While you won't have the whiz-bang of the glass panel, you'll be able to fulfill a wider range of missions with the Lance. Like someone said, you can take the entire quartet somewhere in it!
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Very true!
 
spiderweb said:
It really isn't. Someone once posted rates for rental a range of Cirri, and they went into the $400s Bear in mind, these were purchased brand new, and are only a few years old. And the rate is wet.
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I realize that - We have SR22's that go for $235 + fuel surcharge. I've never flown them because there's a mandatory 16-hour checkout, which will run well north of $4,000, and the price per mile is too far out of my normal $1/nm range.

The problem, IMO, is that the Cirrus insurance (and possibly other things) put a premium on Cirrus rental rates as compared to other planes of similar capability, as opposed to other Cirri. If two planes of similar age/equipment/capability have rates that are quite different (as in the ~35% we're looking at here), I'm gonna take the cheaper one. I don't really care whose name is on the side. :)
 
spiderweb said:
The Cirri at this flight school are nearly new. I'm sure the insurance is higher on the PA32, since it is a six-seat retract, but it also has to be a 20+ year-old airframe, so cheaper purchase price.
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I think that's exactly right, for comparing an older Lance to a newer Cirrus.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
The problem, IMO, is that the Cirrus insurance (and possibly other things) put a premium on Cirrus rental rates
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Is it really true that a Cirrus costs more to insure than other planes?

I don't know about rentals, but for an owner-flown SR22, I was quoted about 1.2% of hull value each year. That's for 100k liability and an instrument-rated pilot with a few hundred hours total time and ten hours in type. Would it be any cheaper for another fixed-gear plane of comparable age and value, like an C-182?
 
Update on the Lance:

As Pistol noted, the interior is HOT red (but clean). It looks to be in good condition, but the panel is "just the basics." Dealbreaker for me is that it only has a VFR GPS, and only has a wing leveler.

I think the purpose of it is for COMM training. If they put in even something like a 430 and a two-axis AP, I'd get checked out in it. As of now, no. For me, the Lance would be a traveling machine, and with that panel and "autopilot," it just doesn't cut it. And there's certainly no fun factor there either.

I told the flight school, I'd gladly pay more per hour if they do a couple of upgrades. I even like the retro interior--reminds me of my childhood!
 
spiderweb said:
The Cirri at this flight school are nearly new. I'm sure the insurance is higher on the PA32, since it is a six-seat retract, but it also has to be a 20+ year-old airframe, so cheaper purchase price.
Click to expand...
How much does an SR20 cost to buy compared to a Lance? Hull value is by far the biggest chunk of the insurance bill.
 
Just saw this thread and it looks like you have made-up your mind but I'll go ahead and add a few thoughts based on flying a Lance vs and SR22.
-The interior on the Lance (left seat in particular) is very comfortable. I find it much more comfortable than the SR22 over a longer trip. It's more like sitting in a recliner.
-Climb is nothing to write home about in the Lance, unless it's negative. I would not want to take my T-Tail out of a short strip.
-Glide on the Lance is very unimpressive. Based on the tests we ran in Xavion (awesome app btw), the glide was about 8:1. Don't plan on going a long ways to an airport in an engine out. C172 vs SR22, the parachute isn't as big a deal for me. Lance vs SR22, I love having the parachute instead of needing to glide the Lance someplace.
-I plan on about 155 KTAS in the Lance. Depending on conditions, I've consistently cruised as high as 162 kts.

All that said, I love flying the Lance. The Fedex truck is a great analogy. I always tell people the SR22 is a sports car and the Lance is a suburban. The Lance might not be as fun to fly, but it does it's job well and comfortably.
 
Fearless Tower said:
How much does an SR20 cost to buy compared to a Lance? Hull value is by far the biggest chunk of the insurance bill.
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Older SR20s are down to the 110-120 range. Lances with similar avionics to the non glass SR20s are in the 90-110 range.

The comparison here seems to be between a glass panel SR20 and a marginally equipped Lance. Apples/pineapples kind of thing.
 
weilke said:
Older SR20s are down to the 110-120 range. Lances with similar avionics to the non glass SR20s are in the 90-110 range.

The comparison here seems to be between a glass panel SR20 and a marginally equipped Lance. Apples/pineapples kind of thing.
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I agree, I was just commenting on the fact that insurance on the SR20 is going to be higher than the Lance due to the higher hull value (he also did mention that this was a newer SR20) and consequently why SR20 rental rate is notably higher than the Lance.
 
Fearless Tower said:
How much does an SR20 cost to buy compared to a Lance? Hull value is by far the biggest chunk of the insurance bill.
Click to expand...

Probably $300k for new Cirrus and, what, maybe $120 for the Lance?
 
Traket92X said:
Just saw this thread and it looks like you have made-up your mind but I'll go ahead and add a few thoughts based on flying a Lance vs and SR22.
-The interior on the Lance (left seat in particular) is very comfortable. I find it much more comfortable than the SR22 over a longer trip. It's more like sitting in a recliner.
-Climb is nothing to write home about in the Lance, unless it's negative. I would not want to take my T-Tail out of a short strip.
-Glide on the Lance is very unimpressive. Based on the tests we ran in Xavion (awesome app btw), the glide was about 8:1. Don't plan on going a long ways to an airport in an engine out. C172 vs SR22, the parachute isn't as big a deal for me. Lance vs SR22, I love having the parachute instead of needing to glide the Lance someplace.
-I plan on about 155 KTAS in the Lance. Depending on conditions, I've consistently cruised as high as 162 kts.

All that said, I love flying the Lance. The Fedex truck is a great analogy. I always tell people the SR22 is a sports car and the Lance is a suburban. The Lance might not be as fun to fly, but it does it's job well and comfortably.
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Thanks!
 
Traket92X said:
Just saw this thread and it looks like you have made-up your mind but I'll go ahead and add a few thoughts based on flying a Lance vs and SR22.
-The interior on the Lance (left seat in particular) is very comfortable. I find it much more comfortable than the SR22 over a longer trip. It's more like sitting in a recliner.
-Climb is nothing to write home about in the Lance, unless it's negative. I would not want to take my T-Tail out of a short strip.
-Glide on the Lance is very unimpressive. Based on the tests we ran in Xavion (awesome app btw), the glide was about 8:1. Don't plan on going a long ways to an airport in an engine out. C172 vs SR22, the parachute isn't as big a deal for me. Lance vs SR22, I love having the parachute instead of needing to glide the Lance someplace.
-I plan on about 155 KTAS in the Lance. Depending on conditions, I've consistently cruised as high as 162 kts.

All that said, I love flying the Lance. The Fedex truck is a great analogy. I always tell people the SR22 is a sports car and the Lance is a suburban. The Lance might not be as fun to fly, but it does it's job well and comfortably.
Click to expand...
I was nodding in agreement until the "SR22 is a sports car".

For a traveling airplane as an owned aircraft, it's hard to beat a Lance in terms of bang for the buck. In a rental situation, particularly in this FBO's apparent plan to use it as a commercial trainer, it is not as attractive a machine. The fuel will eat them up. If this is a leaseback aircraft, do not expect it to stay on the line for more than 4-6 months. A year tops.
 
Ken Ibold said:
I was nodding in agreement until the "SR22 is a sports car".

For a traveling airplane as an owned aircraft, it's hard to beat a Lance in terms of bang for the buck. In a rental situation, particularly in this FBO's apparent plan to use it as a commercial trainer, it is not as attractive a machine. The fuel will eat them up. If this is a leaseback aircraft, do not expect it to stay on the line for more than 4-6 months. A year tops.
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Agree. That's why I suggested they put in a more modern panel and at least a basic AP. The interior, while nostalgic, is fine because it is clean.

But as of now, it looks to be just a clean and safe late 1970s Lance.
 
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