Cirrus down MYF (San Diego)

Awful. Got some texts about this one
 
I just listened to the audio. Seems the trim issue came first, followed by a go around. Tower had an aircraft line up and wait 28R and asked 0YZ go around and asked to offset to the north.
 
I just listened to the audio. Seems the trim issue came first, followed by a go around. Tower had an aircraft line up and wait 28R and asked 0YZ go around and asked to offset to the north.
Could you post that link in live ATC please?
 
just listened. my take is that it sounds like they realized they had a trim issue, some blocked radio calls, tower cleared N5396E to take off, Cirrus suddenly coming in at 130+ kts instead of 80 with the emergency/issue, tower needed them to go around, pilot lost control on an attempted go-around
 
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Is a Cirrus an appropriate primary flight instruction plane?
 
Is a Cirrus an appropriate primary flight instruction plane?
The military puts kids in the T-6A Texan II which doesn’t lag too far behind the P-51 in performance. The difference is the level of ground study and technical training that they can force on a student, where it’s hard to enforce that upon a paying client.
 
Solo? With as little prep as a PPL?
 
Cirrus flyers.. what say you?? Guy was complaining about trim. Was pretty fast for approach. I assume trim is on the yoke..vs manually grabbing the wheel. Could it be as simple as ‘auto-trim’ not working and just not using manual trim?? Can you have a ‘runaway trim’ in that airplane.
 
Cirrus flyers.. what say you?? Guy was complaining about trim. Was pretty fast for approach. I assume trim is on the yoke..vs manually grabbing the wheel. Could it be as simple as ‘auto-trim’ not working and just not using manual trim?? Can you have a ‘runaway trim’ in that airplane.
And one more question. I assume the trim button is on the stick. In what relation to other buttons? Could he just have done it himself? Fat fingers?
 
Listening to the atc link (thanks @luvflyin ) The cirrus pilot makes a transmission I can’t understand (@ 22:06), tower responds that she’ll call base.
Did anyone catch what he said?

obviously, sad. Condolences to any who knew him.
 
On the Cirrus you have a a four-way hat switch that does aileron and elevator trim. The trim is not aerodynamic, this means you are just changing the position of the centering springs in the stick assembly, not a tab. There is no manual adjustment, you are using an electric device driven by the hat switch

The "newer" planes have an envelope protection which will also use the trim to aid. This is driven by Garmin. You can interrupt this by clicking down on the hat trim or pressing the red button in front which will interrupt the trim motors and also disable the autopilot

It sounded to me like he may have gotten behind the airplane, the death grip on the yoke had him with an open mic, it's not unreasonable to think this may have also had him pressing the trim inadvertently, to @luvflyin point

The plane is not un-flyable out of trim, but it will have very interesting feedback and be susceptible to oscillations.. this can be especially true if you are already out of trim then you go full power with the flaps down.. things can go sideways. There was an apparent case in Australia with a runaway trim but I'd be surprised if that was the case here tbh

RE: learning in a Cirrus
It is a fixed gear single engine plane. No it does not fly like a 172 or Cherokee but with competent instruction there's no reason you can't learn in one. Students and certificated pilots alike crash 172 / 182 / Bonanzas and everything in between in the pattern and in go arounds
 
I saw a post in another forum where the poster reviewed his airspeeds during this fateful pattern. He flew his base at 76 knots, which is too slow for 20 IMO. After 50 % flaps are deployed I like to slow to at most 100kts on the descent, usually slowing to 95 by turn to base. After the turn to base I'll go to 100% flaps and allow the plane to slow to between 90 and 85. I'll fly at 90 to 85 until short final, where I'll slow to about 78 by the fence. This is full flaps. I'm generally in a 22, but the 20 is similar on speeds, just a little slower at the fence.

So at first glance, it sounds like this guy was behind the airplane and probably didn't have the skills to understand that and save himself. At my last review of this accident is was still unclear as to whether he was the one reporting the runaway trim. But even if he had run away trim, the airplane should have still been flyable. Cirrus trim is basically spring loaded, there are no pilot adjustable trim tabs, you basically move a spring to counter stick forces.

The 20 G6 is a high performance aircraft. 215 hp and it will cruise at 150 knots. It is a TAA aircraft, learning all the systems is lot of work, never mind learning them while learning to fly. The Cirrus wasn't around when I learned to fly. It was around when I came back after 25 years off. I understood that higher performance aircraft are more of a handful to fly, so I opted to come back in a 172 with a six pack. I fully anticipated getting checked out in the 20 after I got my flight review and that's how I did it. If anyone asks me, that's what I advise. Start with a lower performance, simple airplane with a six pack. Learn how to be a pilot first, stick and rudder skills, versus complex system management.

I was very cognizant of how the instructor who brought me back to flying and did my flight review, changed when we started flying the 20. At that time it was a $150k aircraft versus a $40k trainer, now a 20 is $600k. The instructor did not let things get as far out of control as when I was in the trainer. It was just different, and I remember thinking at the time, if I were just starting out, I would have missed many lessons.

The accident airplane had envelope protection. I suspect he was feeling the plane trying to save him and fought it. That could be wrong, hopefully the SD card for flight data was installed and we can figure out what happened.

One last thing for student pilots. Tell the controllers you speak to that you are a student pilot. There is no shame, the controllers are more helpful and will not try to squeeze you in. I learned and still fly in a very busy delta. Even after I got my license, I would use the student pilot card if I got uptight. Use it!

Next, if you are on final and you have an issue, declare an emergency. Chances are, if the student was having a trim issue and the controller understood, she would not have issued the go around order. Also, once you declare an emergency, you can refuse the go around order. Do what you need to do to SAFELY get on the ground.

Finally, I haven't listened to the tapes, but it sounds like someone said they had a trim issue, the controller apparently didn't hear it and kept talking to others. If you are talking to a controller and someone says they have an issue. If the controller comes to you instead of working the issue, make sure you ask the controller if they heard the issue call. Then everyone STFU. We need to help each other out, controllers can get task saturated too.
 
I wonder if he had the autopilot on and was fighting it.
Wow, that seems plausible given this altitude track.. what a shame

This certainly does not look handflown to me!
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Certainly not..!

But can I picture a situation where maybe a task saturated student pilot in a busy pattern turns on the AP to catch their breath? Maybe. Doesn't make it right. Cirrus actively discourages it in the FOM:

upload_2022-11-7_11-53-1.png
 
I wonder if he had the autopilot on and was fighting it.

depends on the plane, but on this particular aircraft the ap broadcasts on ads-b if you have selected an altitude or a heading. doesn't look like this student was using the ap at all. no altitude bug selected and the heading bug was set to 282 degrees (roughly) throughout multiple patterns. don't see how he could have been making turns on the ap with that

i suppose it's possible that he hit the wing leveler button or something and as he's trying to descend it's fighting him so he adds power as it slows. to me that's way more likely than a genuine trim issue

This certainly does not look handflown to me!
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Is that a thing amongst Cirrus pilots. Flying the 'pattern' with Autopilot??

i might use the ap as i'm approaching/entering the downwind but never after that point. the ap won't really turn fast enough to do a reasonable pattern

Next, if you are on final and you have an issue, declare an emergency. Chances are, if the student was having a trim issue and the controller understood, she would not have issued the go around order. Also, once you declare an emergency, you can refuse the go around order. Do what you need to do to SAFELY get on the ground.

that's what the student did, but the issue was tower had plenty of spacing from the student to give a takeoff order to another aircraft on the landing runway, then suddenly the student is going 130+ kts. the go-around order was necessary as the landing student was closing in on the departing plane
 
depends on the plane, but on this particular aircraft the ap broadcasts on ads-b if you have selected an altitude or a heading. doesn't look like this student was using the ap at all. no altitude bug selected and the heading bug was set to 282 degrees (roughly) throughout multiple patterns. don't see how he could have been making turns on the ap with that

i suppose it's possible that he hit the wing leveler button or something and as he's trying to descend it's fighting him so he adds power as it slows. to me that's way more likely than a genuine trim issue



i might use the ap as i'm approaching/entering the downwind but never after that point. the ap won't really turn fast enough to do a reasonable pattern



that's what the student did, but the issue was tower had plenty of spacing from the student to give a takeoff order to another aircraft on the landing runway, then suddenly the student is going 130+ kts. the go-around order was necessary as the landing student was closing in on the departing plane

Did the student use the word "emergency"? I don't think he did. But if he did and the controller heard it, she screwed up. Secondly, sounds like he was really struggling, going around was a bad idea, he should have said "unable", and put it down. But that's part of being a student, you don't have the experience yet to know to do that.
 
Are you certain on this? That track looks too perfect to be hand flown
huh? the altitude is all over the place. and regardless maintaining altitude within 100' is not exactly an impressive feat.

anyway go check ADS-B exchange for yourself. there is a section for "FMS SEL" which tells you if the altitude or heading bugs have a selection. it won't explicitly tell you the AP is on or off, but depending on what the aircraft is doing you can kind of infer what's going on.

for confirmation...go look at the track from the plane while it was doing x-country flights. you can see every altitude bug change and heading change. to me it looks like the student set the heading bug on 280~ and never selected an altitude for the pattern work, so to me it's unlikely that they were intentionally using the ap. like i said, perhaps he hit the wing leveler or turned it on (accidentally or not) at some point and was fighting it - but it's clear that it wasn't being used to navigate around the pattern
 
Did the student use the word "emergency"? I don't think he did. But if he did and the controller heard it, she screwed up. Secondly, sounds like he was really struggling, going around was a bad idea, he should have said "unable", and put it down. But that's part of being a student, you don't have the experience yet to know to do that.

you haven't listened to the tape, so why are you telling me what he says? go listen. you'll hear it.

additionally it all happens quickly and there are a few simultaneous radio transmissions. we can hear the pilot saying he has an emergency, but we have no idea right now what the controller heard. he is also coming up on a plane that was cleared to takeoff, so the controller didn't have much choice.

and finally - the accident pilot was doing 140 knots over the ground halfway down the runway. where exactly was he going to "put it down"?
 
you haven't listened to the tape, so why are you telling me what he says? go listen. you'll hear it.

additionally it all happens quickly and there are a few simultaneous radio transmissions. we can hear the pilot saying he has an emergency, but we have no idea right now what the controller heard. he is also coming up on a plane that was cleared to takeoff, so the controller didn't have much choice.

and finally - the accident pilot was doing 140 knots over the ground halfway down the runway. where exactly was he going to "put it down"?

Whatever
 
the altitude is all over the place
I took the snip from Flightaware up in post 23. While flightaware is not perfect that altitude is a razor's edge with a linear descent, I've only ever seen that on my tracks with AP on
 
I took the snip from Flightaware up in post 23. While flightaware is not perfect that altitude is a razor's edge with a linear descent, I've only ever seen that on my tracks with AP on

I think that Flightaware might be smoothing that data out. There's a post with Flightradar24 data over at COPA that shows his last two circuits and they do not look like that. His altitude and speed show some pretty interesting variations. His patterns also aren't great IMO, but from the flightradar24 data, I don't think he had the AP on. That poster also said his ground speed was 76 knots right before his turn from base to final.
 
This was posted, some candid footage. I put it here because of one of the comments made on the video from someone claiming they knew the pilot and it was their first solo. Grain of salt and all that

 
Did the student use the word "emergency"? I don't think he did. But if he did and the controller heard it, she screwed up. Secondly, sounds like he was really struggling, going around was a bad idea, he should have said "unable", and put it down. But that's part of being a student, you don't have the experience yet to know to do that.
Pilot hollers "emergency" at 25:11, strange the controller didn't acknowledge. When she sees the wreck she finally closed the airport.
 
Pilot hollers "emergency" at 25:11, strange the controller didn't acknowledge. When she sees the wreck she finally closed the airport.

Yes, he said it quickly, in between a call and read back. Once again, apparently the controller missed it, did the guy reading back miss it too? Maybe, but if not he should have said something. Pouring on the coals and going was the wrong decision IMO. I hope we see the data from the avionics, it should tell us a lot.

In another forum a poster describes her experience with "runaway" trim in a 20 G6. She was with an instructor and couldn't get the force trimmed out of the stick. He took over, tried to troubleshoot, couldn't fix it, then landed. Apparently it was a bad trim motor.
 
Cirrus flyers.. what say you?? Guy was complaining about trim. Was pretty fast for approach. I assume trim is on the yoke..vs manually grabbing the wheel. Could it be as simple as ‘auto-trim’ not working and just not using manual trim?? Can you have a ‘runaway trim’ in that airplane.

They don't have a manual wheel. No electric trim means a grounded airplane. They are not unflyable with runaway trim, in either direction, however.

And one more question. I assume the trim button is on the stick. In what relation to other buttons? Could he just have done it himself? Fat fingers?

I doubt it. Access is easy enough to correct.
 
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