Cirrus Bashing Counterpoint

Re: Cirrus Rocks - So Far

To the contrary, it is absolutely necessary to look further. During the same period, more than a thousand Ford vans being used as day-care busses were involved in accidents while no Ferraris were damaged in similar accidents.

DavidWhite said:
One need not look any further than NTSB reports - for the Mooney M20J there have been 94 accidents since january 1st, 200. Of the 94, 24 were fatals. In the Plastic Fantastic SR20, there were 54 accidents - 22 of which were fatal. In the SR22 - 146 accidents. 63 of which were fatal.

Tell me which one you would rather crash in (and there are usually NTSB reports for CAPS pulls) The "safety" factor that Cirrus has is the biggest line of bull**** since the Taylor administrations promise not to get cholera and die in office.
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Florida Cracker said:
That all may be true but can it takeoff from a treadmill? :D
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How fast is the treadmill going? Go fast enough and there will be too much drag on the wheels for the plane to accelerate away.

Have to be one fast freaking treadmill to manage that trick though!
 
Re: Cirrus Rocks - So Far

wabower said:
To the contrary, it is absolutely necessary to look further. During the same period, more than a thousand Ford vans being used as day-care busses were involved in accidents while no Ferraris were damaged in similar accidents.
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That is the best argument I've ever heard for buying a Ferrari.

I'm going to the dealership as soon as I get back home.
 
Re: Cirrus Rocks - So Far

Ted DuPuis said:
That is the best argument I've ever heard for buying a Ferrari.

I'm going to the dealership as soon as I get back home.
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If you are still interested, there has NEVER been a fatal accident between a battleship and a Colorado Rocky Mountain.

Choose either and you'll be safe forever!
 
Florida Cracker said:
If you are still interested, there has NEVER been a fatal accident between a battleship and a Colorado Rocky Mountain.

Choose either and you'll be safe forever!
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Excellent point....Ted, this just might be the perfect time to buy a LearBaron!
 
Tail strikes on a Cirrus generally occur when doing zero flap landings. Starting with the G3, ground clearance was increased so this is mostly an issue with G1 and G2 aircraft and even then generally only when doing zero flap landings.

If you plot kinetic energy vs. the (fatal accident)/(total accident) ratio there is a good fit to a straight line with higher kinetic energy upon landing meaning a higher fatal/total accident ratio.
 
I think I pretty much nailed the landings right out of the gate. I don't miss the 172 "float forever" one bit. The sink rate takes some getting used to. If you have to slip to lose alt, you came in REALLY high.

I read every single accident record myself. My conclusion is that 1) There's no denying that the 'chute has saved around 60 lives, 2) The "doctor killer" has some validity...many accidents are people going places they don't belong, and 3) in a garden variety engine-out the 'cute works perfectly (>500agl and <135Knts). That's an incredible measure of comfort for me.

Add to that...a "real" interior with comfort for 4 and then some, and a solid "Mercedes" feel, and I'm sold. I still love and will fly the venerable 172. But this plane takes the pleasure of flying to a whole new level!
 
VWGhiaBob said:
3) in a garden variety engine-out the 'cute works perfectly (>500agl and <135Knts). That's an incredible measure of comfort for me.
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Except when the chute doesn't work and you fireball because you were dependent on the chute.
 
Any mechanical device can fail, including the Cirrus parachute.

Do the homework...read about the 60+ deployments. Talk to the folks who lost an engine or flew into IFR conditions accidentally (we are all human). Then make up your own mind. I did, and it's extremely compelling - for me.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
I think I pretty much nailed the landings right out of the gate. I don't miss the 172 "float forever" one bit. The sink rate takes some getting used to. If you have to slip to lose alt, you came in REALLY high.

I read every single accident record myself. My conclusion is that 1) There's no denying that the 'chute has saved around 60 lives, 2) The "doctor killer" has some validity...many accidents are people going places they don't belong, and 3) in a garden variety engine-out the 'cute works perfectly (>500agl and <135Knts). That's an incredible measure of comfort for me.

Add to that...a "real" interior with comfort for 4 and then some, and a solid "Mercedes" feel, and I'm sold. I still love and will fly the venerable 172. But this plane takes the pleasure of flying to a whole new level!
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I have a whole 1.6 hours in an SR-22, but I tend to agree with your feelings about the plane.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
...and a solid "Mercedes" feel...
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The last cirrus i rode in, there were no rattles and every piece of equipment on the plane worked perfectly. In other words, very much NOT like a mercedes
 
I've only got about 400 hours PIC in the SR22 and my findings are the same as yours: the people who bash the strongest and loudest have never flown in one, much less been trained as PIC in one. Very capable airplane with lots of safety features. Those safety features can only lead you to do stupid things if you are a stupid pilot. "Stupid is as stupid does"....Forrest Gump. In conclusion, when I win a little lottery I'll buy the SR22. When I win the big lottery I'll buy the Pilatus. Oh hell, I'll buy them both.
 
LOL...right u r Jeff! I forgot how unreliable Mercedes are. Substitute Lexus. The Cirrus has a solid feel unlike any plane I've flown...and it has a "real" dashboard and a CONSOLE between the front seats. Even the back seats are roomy and comfortable. But then it's also about 50% more expensive. Siiggghhhh.


JHW said:
The last cirrus i rode in, there were no rattles and every piece of equipment on the plane worked perfectly. In other words, very much NOT like a mercedes
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Pa28-140 said:
I've only got about 400 hours PIC in the SR22 and my findings are the same as yours: the people who bash the strongest and loudest have never flown in one, much less been trained as PIC in one. Very capable airplane with lots of safety features. Those safety features can only lead you to do stupid things if you are a stupid pilot. "Stupid is as stupid does"....Forrest Gump. In conclusion, when I win a little lottery I'll buy the SR22. When I win the big lottery I'll buy the Pilatus. Oh hell, I'll buy them both.
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I wish I'd written this post. :)
 
$600k for no cowl flaps and a castoring shopping cart nose wheel? Meh.
 
Cirrus and Safety

In a funny kind of way, airplanes are like PC's versus Mac. It's amusing to watch folks criticize one or the other without knowing or fully considering the facts. Or to see them insult other pilots. Almost becomes a religion, huh?

I have read details about every Cirrus crash and have read every piece of info I can find on line. My conclusion: The Cirrus is a safer plane when flown properly. Jerk it around excessively, fly it into really bad weather, or fail to deploy the 'chute and you've got a problem.

I plan to be a Cirrus pilot who flies the plane as if it doesn't have the parachute or all the other gizmos. I will not take unnecessary chances because of the 'chute.

I will have the extra peace of mind that goes with knowing that if an engine fails, I have a back up plan. Or if I have a heart attack, my loved ones will float down with me. Or if I get disoriented and do something I shouldn't (and no one is beyond this - we're human), there's a way out.

I'm not religious about the Cirrus. I still LOVE my Cessna's and Pipers. And I'm sure I'd like just about any other plane, including a Cub (which I hope to learn soon), and the DC-3 (my dream is to pilot it on my 60th birthday...only $1,800 / hr. wet).

If you're not afraid to change your mind, listen to these testimonials, one from a Dad who survived a catastrophic engine failure with his 10 year old daughter by his side. Makes you think, huh? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9FCmfaV0yY
 
Re: Cirrus and Safety

VWGhiaBob said:
If you're not afraid to change your mind, listen to these testimonials, one from a Dad who survived a catastrophic engine failure with his 10 year old daughter by his side. Makes you think, huh? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9FCmfaV0yY
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Ditching an airplane with no chute has been done successfully thousands of times.

I think its a great safety feature. But I would be slightly hesitant now that it seems we have a 1 in 60 chance of successful deployment.

Cirrus makes excellent airplanes but i'm not sure i'd say "if i had the money, i'd buy a cirrus". For the money, i'd get an A36.
 
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Re: Cirrus and Safety

dell30rb said:
Ditching an airplane with no chute has been done successfully thousands of times.

I think its a great safety feature. But I would be slightly hesitant now that it seems we have a 1 in 60 chance of successful deployment.

Cirrus makes excellent airplanes but i'm not sure i'd say "if i had the money, i'd buy a cirrus". For the money, i'd get an A36.
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For the Money I'd buy a used Meridian. A new A36 is 1mil+ IIRC.
 
Re: Cirrus and Safety

DavidWhite said:
I didn't think about that. I like the way the Commanders look too.
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The Commander flies like an airplane, but I don't like how it handles on the ground. I also especially don't like the lack of comfort up front.

The caveat on the MU-2 is I'd have to fly one first. I did really like the Cheyenne.
 
Re: Cirrus and Safety

Ted DuPuis said:
The Commander flies like an airplane, but I don't like how it handles on the ground. I also especially don't like the lack of comfort up front.

The caveat on the MU-2 is I'd have to fly one first. I did really like the Cheyenne.
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Rockwell Commander??? We have one locally. I was supposed to get checked out in it but something keeps happening to delay that.
 
Re: Cirrus and Safety

Jaybird180 said:
Rockwell Commander??? We have one locally. I was supposed to get checked out in it but something keeps happening to delay that.
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Pfft - you think I would be caught flying something with one engine?! :yikes:

Turbine Commander 690A:

800px-Private_Rockwell_Commander_690A_N121JW_Logan_International_Airport.jpg


That's the one I used to fly, even. We called it "Jigga-Watt." See who gets the reference.

Anyway, the ground handling is a bit hard to get used to. The first 6 degrees of brake pedal travel (brakes are in the rudder pedals as normal) control the steerable nosewheel, vs having the steerable nosewheel controlled by pushing the rudder pedals as normal. Every Commander pilot has told me "Oh, it's a much better system." They also haven't been able to tell me why, and haven't been able to smoothly taxi with it, even with 5,000+ hours of Commander time.
 
JHW said:
The last cirrus i rode in, there were no rattles and every piece of equipment on the plane worked perfectly. In other words, very much NOT like a mercedes
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I flew in an early Cirrus owned by a physician friend (very careful and well-trained pilot, too). It was "nice," but had many of the niggling quality defects about which we hear all the time, things like door latches that they could simply not make work properly.

If you look at current production, you'll note none of these issues - Cirrus has continually improved the breed, and they are nice buggies, full stop.

DavidWhite said:
For the Money I'd buy a used Meridian. A new A36 is 1mil+ IIRC.
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New G36 is in the $750k range, depends upon options.
 
Nice aircraft, but I could still live without the chute repack. Then again, if someone handed one to me I doubt I'd *****. But no one has handed me a Cirrus, they just handed me a Cherokee. Woe is me.
 
steingar said:
Nice aircraft, but I could still live without the chute repack. Then again, if someone handed one to me I doubt I'd *****. But no one has handed me a Cirrus, they just handed me a Cherokee. Woe is me.
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It's not an option. The aircraft is [legally] unairworthy without it.
 
I think Geico got it right. The Cirrus is a terrific airplane providing you fly it as a Cirrus, not as a Cherokee or your previously owned more perhaps docile aircraft. The technology is there to help you, not replace your pilot skills. When I transitioned, my trainer spent plenty of time with me hand flying the airplane before getting into the AP functions.
 
Well put, Fedman / Geico. Heck, a Learjet is also harder to fly than a 172, but that doesn't make it less safe. It just requires more training. Same with Cirrus. Just don't assume that it's as easy to fly as a 172. It's far more temperamental and requires lots of training. The reward for that is a fast, comfortable, extremely safe flying platform.

And before some of you jump in and state that the Cirrus accident rate is high, you need to look at more recent data. The early accident rate was caused by a misunderstanding that Cirrus requires no more training and attention to safety than a 172. Once everyone got over that, Cirrus implemented a comprehensive training program, and the accident rate is BETTER (no longer worse) than the rest of GA.
 
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