Cirrus attempting to land into a UH-60 rotor wake

Wow. We have CH-47s at our airport. They'll do work over the rwy once in a while. This is a good reminder to pay attention.
 
Crap, that was a good bit after they departed as well. Personally, I never shared the runway with light GA when I flew 60s. Not that this pilot did anything wrong but I would have gone off the grass or the parallel.

We had a tail wheel locking pin jammed on the ramp in Bagram, Afghanistan a few years ago. We were in parking and couldn't taxi forward and had to pick up to a hover. We cleared ourselves back just as an MI-17 Hip was opening it's doors. It was 100 ft away and our rotor wash took it's doors and flipped them back against it's fuse. Doors, hinges and fuse all damaged.

Roughly 4,000 FPM rotor wash is like a mini micro burst. Be careful out there around helos.
 
Velocity173 said:
Crap, that was a good bit after they departed as well. Personally, I never shared the runway with light GA when I flew 60s. Not that this pilot did anything wrong but I would have gone off the grass or the parallel.
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Not sure what you mean by the parallel in this case. FNL (accident airport) has a two paved runways but one is crosswind, not parallel. In my limited experience there, the helos usually use the crosswind runway. Of course the ARNG guys sorta do whatever they want and they did absolutely nothing wrong in this case.

FNL used to have an MD-80 Allegiant flight and that was one to stay well clear of...89V extending the downwind...
 
Clark1961 said:
Not sure what you mean by the parallel in this case. FNL (accident airport) has a two paved runways but one is crosswind, not parallel. In my limited experience there, the helos usually use the crosswind runway. Of course the ARNG guys sorta do whatever they want and they did absolutely nothing wrong in this case.

FNL used to have an MD-80 Allegiant flight and that was one to stay well clear of...89V extending the downwind...
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Parallel taxiway. If I was at an airport with multiple GA aircraft in the pattern, I don't share the runway with them. Even with a little 407 I take the parallel (Taxiway) or the grass. If I require the runway, I make sure I'm off well before someone reports final.

Situations like these it's hard to point fingers though. Based on the winds of the dust, it appears it was a slight right crosswind. Possibly the Cirrus pilot thought the rotor wash & vortices would be blown off to the left by the time he got there. :dunno:

One time I had a FW pilot complain about my rotor wash a good minute after I had set down. I was probably 50 meters from the runway as well. It sticks around a long time. We try and be cognizant of rotor wash but it's a strange thing to predict sometimes. Your own rotor wash can be a contributing factor in crashing your aircraft (Bin Laden) if you aren't aware of your surroundings. Makes formation flying a tricky endeavor as well.
 
Lets not forget that this was a student pilot on a second solo if memory serves correctly. His judgement and knowledge of wake turbulence avoidance was not years of experience.
 
I was surprised at how long the rotor wash stayed around. I would have thought that time (a minute roughly?) would have been enough.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I was surprised at how long the rotor wash stayed around. I would have thought that time (a minute roughly?) would have been enough.
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The timestamp showed more like 30 seconds.

PP training tells you where to land and takeoff in relation to the wake turb from the jet in front of you. But I don't remember much discussion of what a helicopter can leave behind.
 
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Matthew said:
The timestamp showed more like 30 seconds.

PP training tells you where to land and takeoff in relation to the wake turb from the jet in front of you. But I don't remember much discussion of what a helicopter can leave behind.
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Pretty sure the knowledge test had a question about rotor wash and how it should be treated the same as FW wake turbulence.
 
NJP_MAN said:
Pretty sure the knowledge test had a question about rotor wash and how it should be treated the same as FW wake turbulence.
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I did find this in the PHAK:

>>>
A hovering helicopter generates a down wash from its main rotor(s) similar to the vortices of an airplane. Pilots of small aircraft should avoid a hovering helicopter by at least three rotor disc diameters to avoid the effects of this down wash. In forward flight this energy is transformed into a pair of strong, high-speed trailing vortices similar to wing-tip vortices of larger fixed-wing aircraft. Helicopter vortices should be avoided because helicopter forward flight airspeeds are often very slow and can generate exceptionally strong wake turbulence.
<<<
 

That is a very interesting video.

I have read about wake turbulence but never experienced wake turbulence strong enough to upset my aircraft.

I am based at an airport (SMX) with regularly scheduled regional jets, firefighting air tankers and large helicopters; even an occasional UH-60.

I would wait a lot longer after a Black Hawk taking off in a 3kt wind.

Is it possible a more experienced pilot could have managed the turbulence?

I am not a fixed wing pilot so I don’t know.

The preliminary accident report has the student pilot reporting the Black Hawk was landing although it appears to me from the Video he was taking off.

Touch and goes maybe?
 
Vance Breese said:



Is it possible a more experienced pilot could have managed the turbulence?

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I'm not very experienced but I have been hit with some freaky Three Seven and A320 wakes on multiple occasions being stuffed into sequence at Phoenix. It makes for a interesting ride. You gotta be on your toes is all I can say.
 
The NTSB report suggests that the student was fully aware of a helicopter, perhaps the same helicopter in the video, landing. And it sounded like the student was taking proper precautions to avoid the wash for a landing helicopter.

But then either the same helicopter performed a T&G or a 2nd copter departed.

If it was a T&G, sadly, taking the right actions to avoid the wash on landing would position one exactly where you wouldn't want to be for a departure. And I would presume a departing copter transitioning from hover to forward flight would be the worse case for leaving a dangerous wake.

Would a more experienced pilot have maintained control? Perhaps simply because he would have reacted more effectively. Tough deal for a student.

The key would be to realize that unlike for arriving and departing (even T&G) fixed wing craft, there may be zero runway that is safe during a copter T&G.

New to me, very interesting and informative. Time is the only solution to avoidance.

Airplane wakes move down and apart but drift with the wind. Helicopter wash moves down and away but does so in a 360 manner. Never thought about that.
 
Just missed the ribbon cut by an inch. Must be a seahawks fan.
 
At a hover and taking off.
 

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We see Blackhawks [Customs] and the big Sikorsky's at Camarillo all the time for lunch at Waypoint - and it amazes me that people are even out and about when they come into to land on Taxiway Golf and then air / taxi slide over to transient parking. You can feel a 30kt wind 100 yards away in the restaurant . . .
 
Vance Breese said:

Touch and goes maybe?
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Yup. FNL would not be a normal stop for ANG aircraft this time of year.

ANG does run a helo school at Buckley so local airports see some of their traffic. It seems to me that they mostly stay out of the way of little planes but not always. It also seems to me that there is more Blackhawk traffic in the BJC to FNL area since the fires and floods in recent years. FNL has frequently been used as a helo base for fire associated operations so maybe it's just a familiarity thing for the ANG guys.
 
A UH-60's downward air velocity reaches 60-65 mph at a 50' hover. This really made for some exciting takeoffs/landings when I was in, as we made a huge cloud of dust or snow. Imagine doing it under NVG's. At 17-22 yrs of age I did not realize how dangerous that was. We lose about 3/4 of our helicopters in the desert that are contributed to "brown-outs".
 
I learned to fly at an airport that has a pair of MI-8 helos operating on it. I flew a 150. You learn to keep your distance.
 
RV10flyer said:
A UH-60's downward air velocity reaches 60-65 mph at a 50' hover. This really made for some exciting takeoffs/landings when I was in, as we made a huge cloud of dust or snow. Imagine doing it under NVG's. At 17-22 yrs of age I did not realize how dangerous that was. We lose about 3/4 of our helicopters in the desert that are contributed to "brown-outs".
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Doesn't get really fun until NVGs and a section landing in the middle of Kuwait. :nonod:

This is a good vid of what it's like to land in formation with swirling rotor wash. Starts at 3:00. I can almost hear the intercom in those last few aircraft. "Just set it down...set it down" "You're drifting!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1BC3igse50
 
Why is such a heavy helicopter allowed to share a runway with fixed-wing traffic at a busy uncontrolled airport?

This sounds like an accident just waiting to happen. And it did happen.

Shouldn't such a rotorcraft operate only where it can't kill pilots of small planes? Maybe away from the runway or at a controlled airport where the tower can provide enough separation, or at least at an uncontrolled airport that is sleepy and inactive?
 
Shouldn't little airplanes not operate near helicopters? Helicopters are working machines saving lives and defending freedom. Little airplanes are just hobby pilots wasting money.
 
NoHeat said:
Why is such a heavy helicopter allowed to share a runway with fixed-wing traffic at a busy uncontrolled airport?
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Because pilots are expected to understand and adjust their operations for wake turbulence and rotor wash.

It really isn't too much to ask. The initial NTSB report is confusing on this one, as it says the pilot was planning to touch down past the landing point of the helo, which would have been a fine plan. The problem is the helo lifted off, and we don't know if he announced a touch and go or not. Either way, the pilot had plenty of time to see the lift off and should have gone around to let the air clear for a couple minutes. I was taught 2 minutes as a *minimum* wake turbulence wait time, behind something like a CJ or GIII. Even at that 2 minute separation, I've felt a bump or two departing behind a biz-jet.

Jeff
 
Wow.. I am sorry to see that happen, but also thankful to learn from this. I definitely did not have helicopters on my radar like that. Will be very cautious moving forward.
 
At the tiny airport I fly out of we don't have any military helicopters, but have the occasional Robinson and even some larger craft running pattern laps. That can pose a problem if you are wanting to depart, if they fly the runway at 20' or whatever... need to wait that 2 minutes and by then they are practically back around on final.
 
woodchucker said:
At the tiny airport I fly out of we don't have any military helicopters, but have the occasional Robinson and even some larger craft running pattern laps. That can pose a problem if you are wanting to depart, if they fly the runway at 20' or whatever... need to wait that 2 minutes and by then they are practically back around on final.
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There is a HUGE difference in the amount of rotor wash produced by an R-22 vs a Blackhawk. That is like comparing a Cessna 152 to an ATR-72.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
There is a HUGE difference in the amount of rotor wash produced by an R-22 vs a Blackhawk. That is like comparing a Cessna 152 to an ATR-72.
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Dude, I know... relax. But it's something to be aware of, as rotor wash was never once discussed in my PPL training. Just making a mindless observation. And like I said, bigger birds also fly there (like maybe Bell Jet Ranger size), and there are a couple others parked on ramps that are even larger than that but I haven't seen fly.
 
woodchucker said:
Dude, I know... relax. But it's something to be aware of, as rotor wash was never once discussed in my PPL training. Just making a mindless observation. And like I said, bigger birds also fly there (like maybe Bell Jet Ranger size), and there are a couple others parked on ramps that are even larger than that but I haven't seen fly.
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You implied you'd wait 2 minutes for a Robinson's rotor wash. It wasn't clear if you understood that was unnecessary.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
You implied you'd wait 2 minutes for a Robinson's rotor wash. It wasn't clear if you understood that was unnecessary.
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Okay, to be clear, I wouldn't wait for two minutes on a Robinson! :D

The one problem with the helicopters doing pattern laps is that they fly the length of the runway at 20 feet. You can't avoid the resulting wake turbulence (from the heavier birds).
 
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