Chicago Lakefront VFR

[btorrenga]

I wonder if anyone can pass on any tips for doing a VFR sightseeing flight up the Chicago lakefront, staying below the class B at say 2500', coming from the south and then doing a 180 at some point up north of the city?

I have flown it many times in the past, but that was pre 9/11, before stadium TFRs and while CGX was still playing traffic cop.

The terminal chart says to call up Chicago App 118.4 for VFR advisories SE of ORD, but browsing the internet forums seems to indicate that Chicago App doesn't usually like to provide flight following...

I guess my two concerns are 1) TFRs from MLB and NFL games, and 2) no one will give me the time of day for flight following...?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

--Brent

 

[vettepilot]

Brent,

This is personally one of my favorite flights, in the summer at least... I've done that flight a bunch as I used to fly out of Chicago Exec and my parents and in-laws live down near Porter County (KVPZ). You're probably better off getting help from Gary tower if you're coming up from the south. They obviously can't give you flight following, but they are typically familiar with the traffic in that area and are EXCEPTIONALLY friendly and helpful. I have had them call out traffic for me as far north as Northerly Island. As far as the stadium TFRs go, check Northwestern football, the Bears, Cubs, and White Sox. Cellular field is the furthest from the lakeshore at about 1.75 miles, so through that area you'd have to be at least 1.5 miles offshore (and that only gives you .25 mile margin).

Personally, I think the flight is amazing during the day, but it is absolutely incredible at night! Not only does the air tend to be smoother, especially in the summer, but it is MUCH easier to see traffic since their lights will contrast with the dark lake. Keep your head on a swivel, but keep in mind that a lot of the traffic you see will be significantly above you on the ILS for ORD. Also, as I mentioned before, if you make the trip at night and its before the GYY tower closes for the night, they'll typically call out as much traffic as they can.

Good luck with the flight, it is well worth it! I tell my non-pilot friends that you haven't seen the skyline until you've seen it from a half-mile out over the lake at 1500' AGL.

Jason

 

[mikea]

I wonder if anyone can pass on any tips for doing a VFR sightseeing flight up the Chicago lakefront, staying below the class B at say 2500', coming from the south and then doing a 180 at some point up north of the city?

I have flown it many times in the past, but that was pre 9/11, before stadium TFRs and while CGX was still playing traffic cop.

The terminal chart says to call up Chicago App 118.4 for VFR advisories SE of ORD, but browsing the internet forums seems to indicate that Chicago App doesn't usually like to provide flight following...

I guess my two concerns are 1) TFRs from MLB and NFL games, and 2) no one will give me the time of day for flight following...?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

--Brent

Sure. I've gone as high as 2700. You're legal as long as you stay over the water. Keep to the right, i.e. hug the shore southbound and go a mile out northbound. You have to WATCH for traffic, and when you see the guy whiz by at you at 300 MPH....

Even if there is a Cubs or Sox game 3 mile TFR it won't extend into the lake. A Bears game at Soldier Field will extend into the lakefront route - you'd have to steer out into the lake.

My CFI just told me you CAN get flight following now. They'll hand you off to Midway at the south end.

You can turn around at the B'Hai temple, which I use as the waypoint to turn inland. When we did the Young Eagles flights from Meigs we turned at Monroe Harbor, but we also flew the southbound leg over the city at 2000 feet.

 

[btorrenga]

Jason,

Thanks for the tips - I'll let GYY tower help as much as they can. Small world, too, since I'm picking my passengers up at VPZ!

Thanks also for the heads-up about the stadiums. Since I posted earlier today, I have downloaded Golden Eagle Flightprep, as well as AOPA's real-time flight planner. Things sure have changed since the dial-up modem DUATS I learned in ground school... Anyways, after stumbling around each of those programs, I have found that they each depict a TFR on the lakefront - if I plot 15nm @ 120deg from ORD, it seems to be landing right on Soldier's Field. Hmm... According to www.nfl.com (and this is ridiculous that we need to worry about such things...), the first home Bears game isn't until Sept 21! What is going on here? Does anyone know what might be generating this TFR in the programs? When clicking on the properties, they each point to FDC 3/1862, which is the default blanket NOTAM for stadiums.

I think there's a Cubs game tomorrow, so if anything, that should show up, right? These TFRs have me concerned.

 

[mikea]

Jason,

Thanks for the tips - I'll let GYY tower help as much as they can. Small world, too, since I'm picking my passengers up at VPZ!

Thanks also for the heads-up about the stadiums. Since I posted earlier today, I have downloaded Golden Eagle Flightprep, as well as AOPA's real-time flight planner. Things sure have changed since the dial-up modem DUATS I learned in ground school... Anyways, after stumbling around each of those programs, I have found that they each depict a TFR on the lakefront - if I plot 15nm @ 120deg from ORD, it seems to be landing right on Soldier's Field. Hmm... According to www.nfl.com (and this is ridiculous that we need to worry about such things...), the first home Bears game isn't until Sept 21! What is going on here? Does anyone know what might be generating this TFR in the programs? When clicking on the properties, they each point to FDC 3/1862, which is the default blanket NOTAM for stadiums.

I think there's a Cubs game tomorrow, so if anything, that should show up, right? These TFRs have me concerned.

I don't recall seeing the sports TFRs listed. You're just supposed to know the schedule

Not the Bears
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/cs-2008bearsarchive,0,5975678.htmlstory
or the Fire
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/soccer/fire/cs-2008firesked,1,5477707.htmlstory

Maybe Obama is having a Welcome Home rally?

It's some other kind of event and I haven't heard.

You could go a few miles out into the lake. I wouldn't recomend that. I was forced into it a hazy day and I'm lucky I'm here to talk about it.

 

[catmandu]

Stadium TFR's tend to stay in the display system of planning software and Garmin machines 24/7/365. So, yes, basically you need to figure out the schedule and see if they are active. Double check with LockMart so that you are covered by a recorded conversation prior to the flight.

Mike

 

[btorrenga]

Stadium TFR's tend to stay in the display system of planning software and Garmin machines 24/7/365. So, yes, basically you need to figure out the schedule and see if they are active. Double check with LockMart so that you are covered by a recorded conversation prior to the flight.

Mike

Mike,

Good call. Does LockMart know all the schedules? I thought I remember hearing some years ago, when all the stadium TFRs came about, that flight service had no info about those types of TFRs. Has that changed, do they now provide that info?

 

[kevin47881]

I was provided with stadium TFR's the last couple times I spoke with LM. As always, YMMV.

 

[ScottM]

118.7 is MDW tower and they will happily give you FF from just north of Gary to about Oak St. Beach. You might even end up talking to a PoAer when you are getting FF.

 

[btorrenga]

Awesome - I'll give MDW a call up once we're out of Gary's airspace. Gonna try to go tomorrow - I'll let you know how it went. Its been so long since I've done this flight, I'm really looking forward to it.

Thanks to all for the tips!

 

[vettepilot]

Brent,

Not sure if you'll check this or not before you go, but make sure you give yourself some altitude over the steel mills, especially if its your passengers first flight. While it is pretty cool to see them in operation from the air, with all of the blast furnaces and quenching towers going it can get a little bumpy below about 1500' AGL. Also keep in mind that a good portion of the lakeshore in Indiana is state and national park.

Jason

 

[mikea]

118.7 is MDW tower and they will happily give you FF from just north of Gary to about Oak St. Beach. You might even end up talking to a PoAer when you are getting FF.

Inspired by this I took my neighbor on his first flight down the lakefront route to Lansing today. It was a great flight on another CAVU day, the difference being I flew on this one (this CAVU day. I've been on the ground through all of those we've had this magnificent summer.)

I checked DUATS and http://tfr.faa/gov and saw no sign of the sports TFR. I wonder if aeroplanner shows it. I checked and saw that the Cubs game started at 4:50(?) so the blanket 3nm TFR would start at 3:50. I did fear that Wrigley Field is close enough to the lake to require a diversion on the lakefront route at minimum. I lived next to the Addison L and we used to walk to the lake. We didn't walk 3 miles, but maybe there's at least a mile of park before the lake shore. I need to see it plotted on a map.

As per my usual, Shannon's Landing and every single FBO at Lansing was closed for Labor Day.

My neighbor was gobsmacked, of course. I even made decent landings. By the time we got back on the 90+ degree day I was down about a gallon on water. Shouldda taken my CamelBak.

I steered 2 or more miles around and under MDWs and GYYs airspace on the GPS, but I mighta looked close on radar. Being that I did do my usual and go under the 3000 foot Bravo shelf at 2700 with good altimeter settings, Chicago might have noticed. Good for them.

We didn't see any traffic other than a few around Lansing and a banner tower from Gary who flew under us down the beach.

I planned on calling Midway on the return trip but ya know what? It ain't worth it.

I tuned in the 119.n on the chart and heard them talking to Southwest. (I guess Scott has the MDW tower frequency above.) So I'm going 150MPH over maybe 12-15 miles of shore, so by the time I get a word in, repeat, get a handshake, a squawk, ... I'm outta the airspace?

It would work fine if we really can get flight following the whole way from well north of the B'Hai and through Gary. Otherwise, why waste the breath?

Anyway, my neighbor and I thank you for the prod. He bought my burger at our pub in town

 

[gprellwitz]

It would work fine if we really can get flight following the whole way from well north of the B'Hai and through Gary. Otherwise, why waste the breath?

We actually did just that on the way back from 6Y9 this year. Of course, Chicago didn't take a handoff from Milwaukee, but we were able to get FF from them at Waukegan. We coordinated our decent with them (they didn't want to coordinate with Waukegan tower, so they had us stay at 3500'), and we got FF all the way down until we were south of MDW's airspace. One of the handoffs was a little whacked. First Approach asks us is we'd changed XPDR codes, to which we respond negative, and read back the current code. Then a few minutes later the same buy gets on and asks us if we were on frequency and if we'd checked in yet. Duh!

That said, it was worthwhile getting FF Sunday, because the lakefront was busy. It can be difficult differentiating aircraft from sailboats at a distance!

 

[ScottM]

That said, it was worthwhile getting FF Sunday, because the lakefront was busy. It can be difficult differentiating aircraft from sailboats at a distance!

If the water conditions are smooth and the sun in the right place whole heading south one of the cribs looks just like a plane coming right at ya!

 

[mikea]

If the water conditions are smooth and the sun in the right place whole heading south one of the cribs looks just like a plane coming right at ya!

You see some flashes from the ground (off the water?) that will get your attention, too.

You shouldn't be so far out in the lake as the cribs. BTW, my neighbor, Waukegan kid, asked what those were. Thought they were oil rigs.

 

[ScottM]

You shouldn't be so far out in the lake as the cribs.

Huh? They are only out about a mile or two, easy to see from miles away. They are even charted as VFR waypoints.

 

[mikea]

Huh? They are only out about a mile or two, easyt to see form miles away. They are even charted as VFR waypoints.

I stay about a mile from shore and the cribs are another mile or two out. Think 1000FPM rate of decent at best glide when you can only be 2000 feet AGL.

I read that they need to move them out further - well Milwaukee did - to get water that's not full of PCBs.

 

[etsisk]

I've only flown over it above the class B... but that was pretty dang cool!

 

[ScottM]

I stay about a mile from shore and the cribs are another mile or two out. Think 1000FPM rate of decent at best glide when you can only be 2000 feet AGL.

I read that they need to move them out further - well Milwaukee did - to get water that's not full of PCBs.

If you cannot see 1 or 2 miles you should not be flying under VFR. Those cribs are easily seen from the shore at ground level and even easier to see while flying.

Now lets talk about glide ratio. For my Warrior it is about 8:1 and it is pretty hard to get it to descend at 1000 fpm even under power. Gliding is much less of a descent rate. That means from 2000' AGL I can be in a no wind situation about 3 miles out to sea and that is right over the top of the cribs.

 

[mikea]

If you cannot see 1 or 2 miles you should not be flying under VFR. Those cribs are easily seen from the shore at ground level and even easier to see while flying.

Now lets talk about glide ratio. For my Warrior it is about 8:1 and it is pretty hard to get it to descend at 1000 fpm even under power. Gliding is much less of a descent rate. That means from 2000' AGL I can be in a no wind situation about 3 miles out to sea and that is right over the top of the cribs.

I wasn't talking about seeing the cribs. I'm talking about being where they are.

Let's talk about what my VSI indicates at best glide - -1000 FPM and that's when moderately loaded.

 

[ScottM]

I wasn't talking about seeing the cribs. I'm talking about being where they are.

Let's talk about what my VSI indicates at best glide - -1000 FPM and that's when moderately loaded.

Ahh, I have been talking about seeing them.

 

[vettepilot]

So, it seems to me like there are quite a few here that are familiar with the route... As much as I love flying that way, I have to admit that from about a mile south of Northerly to the steel mills north of Gary the pucker factor for me is pretty high. Reason being, if you look at the lakeshore along that route, there really isn't a whole lot of usable terrain in the event of an engine out. It seems to me that along that stretch a water ditching is really the best option... I actually will not fly that route between mid-October and late April/early May due to the survivability risk. I guess its a personal risk management decision for me based on the minimal cost of going around the Bravo to the west; has anybody else made a similar decision on the route?

Jason

 

[ScottM]

So, it seems to me like there are quite a few here that are familiar with the route... As much as I love flying that way, I have to admit that from about a mile south of Northerly to the steel mills north of Gary the pucker factor for me is pretty high. Reason being, if you look at the lakeshore along that route, there really isn't a whole lot of usable terrain in the event of an engine out. It seems to me that along that stretch a water ditching is really the best option... I actually will not fly that route between mid-October and late April/early May due to the survivability risk. I guess its a personal risk management decision for me based on the minimal cost of going around the Bravo to the west; has anybody else made a similar decision on the route?

Jason

I fly that route year round. But then I also have PPE including a survival suit that I am wearing. Also a good factor to think about is that Calumet Harbor is where the USCG keeps their boats and the CFD has a helo right there. It is the one place on the west side of the lake with all the rescue gear close by.

 

[mdreger]

Listen to the MDW ATIS first, 132.75. We rarely have 119.45 open any more, but if it is, it should be mentioned on the ATIS. I've heard that C90 has been opening their VFR position more lately so you might even try that, 126.8 IIRC.

MDWT generally watches the lakeshore from GYY up to Montrose. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but you should be able to get FF along the lake shore.

 

[ScottM]

Listen to the MDW ATIS first, 132.75. We rarely have 119.45 open any more, but if it is, it should be mentioned on the ATIS. I've heard that C90 has been opening their VFR position more lately so you might even try that, 126.8 IIRC.

MDWT generally watches the lakeshore from GYY up to Montrose. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but you should be able to get FF along the lake shore.

I have just been calling up on tower frequency. Seems to work everytime.

 

[mikea]

So, it seems to me like there are quite a few here that are familiar with the route... As much as I love flying that way, I have to admit that from about a mile south of Northerly to the steel mills north of Gary the pucker factor for me is pretty high. Reason being, if you look at the lakeshore along that route, there really isn't a whole lot of usable terrain in the event of an engine out. It seems to me that along that stretch a water ditching is really the best option... I actually will not fly that route between mid-October and late April/early May due to the survivability risk. I guess its a personal risk management decision for me based on the minimal cost of going around the Bravo to the west; has anybody else made a similar decision on the route?

Jason

I'd head for the beach but I think I'd end up putting it down in the water, hopefully within wading distance to the sand. There's park land behind the beaches. Up north use one those rich guy's pool patios. Lake Shore drive but there are light poles.

The beaches were, of course, packed on the 90 degree sunny day.

We flew Young Eagles from Meigs not only there, but on the return leg over the city. The only thing I saw was the L tracks, but we discussed that there are train yards toward downtown..and Graceland cemetery.


I thought about how if any plane ever ditched we could count on Duh Mare to scream about how dangerous we are again. I'd hope we could go on TV with "As always, the mayor knows as much about flying as he does about democracy."

 

[vettepilot]

I'd head for the beach but I think I'd end up putting it down in the water, hopefully within wading distance to the sand. There's park land behind the beaches. Up north use one those rich guy's pool patios. Lake Shore drive but there are light poles.

That's my thought as well; land along the beach as close to shore as possible and wade in. At least that way you'll have lifeguards nearby... Unfortunately, once you get south of Hyde Park, there aren't so many beaches left..... But the railyards you mentioned would be a good alternate.

I thought about how if any plane ever ditched we could count on Duh Mare to scream about how dangerous we are again. I'd hope we could go on TV with "As always, the mayor knows as much about flying as he does about democracy."

As if any Chicago media outlet would give any of us that opportunity. As much as I disdain him, his press conferences do provide ample entertainment value!

Jason

 

[flyingcheesehead]

We flew Young Eagles from Meigs not only there, but on the return leg over the city. The only thing I saw was the L tracks

L tracks would be a BAD place to land! If you weren't already gonna have a fire, the 3rd rail would guarantee it!

I thought about how if any plane ever ditched we could count on Duh Mare to scream about how dangerous we are again. I'd hope we could go on TV with "As always, the mayor knows as much about flying as he does about democracy."

 

[btorrenga]

Well, we didn't go today.

I called the flight while I was doing pattern work at Griffith before my friend showed up for us to go to Porter County to pick up his wife.

While turning downwind runway 26, I noticed that the sun had disappeared behind what seemed a towering front. I noticed the shadow of those clouds darkening the eastern landscape. This thing wasn't supposed to arrive until later tonight - it ended up being some pop-up storms leading the cold front.

I chose to land, intending to check the radar. Once on the ground, my friend immediately showed up, and said "the guy inside wanted me to tell you that a thunderstorm is coming". So that was that. We went around the pattern a couple of times, so he at least got a taste of what GA is about.

Thanks to everyone who has posted the advice though. Believe me I have been taking notes.

We'll get back in the air soon. B)

--Brent

 

[gprellwitz]

Well, we didn't go today.

I called the flight while I was doing pattern work at Griffith before my friend showed up for us to go to Porter County to pick up his wife.

While turning downwind runway 26, I noticed that the sun had disappeared behind what seemed a towering front. I noticed the shadow of those clouds darkening the eastern landscape. This thing wasn't supposed to arrive until later tonight - it ended up being some pop-up storms leading the cold front.

I chose to land, intending to check the radar. Once on the ground, my friend immediately showed up, and said "the guy inside wanted me to tell you that a thunderstorm is coming". So that was that. We went around the pattern a couple of times, so he at least got a taste of what GA is about.

Thanks to everyone who has posted the advice though. Believe me I have been taking notes.

We'll get back in the air soon. B)

--Brent

Yeah, there were some storms in the area. But the sunset was beautiful, and we got to see a rainbow! Good call on canceling the flight. Last thing we need is to turn OFF somebody from GA because of a bad experience! Hope he liked his pattern work!