Cherokee Six Power Failure in Pattern

ajstoner21

ajstoner21

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I was talking with a coworker, and he mentioned that once when him and a friend were flying a Cherokee Six, they "failed" (idle) the engine on downwind, abeam the numbers, and wasn't able to make it to the runway.

Has anyone else tried such a thing in a Cherokee Six? Is the glide that bad?
 
I practiced it a year or so ago for an hour or so. Yes the Cherokee 6 is that bad. At least the hersey bar wing version. It can be done but you have know what you are doing. All the more reason to practice it. And you better come over the fence at, at least 100 MPH to be able to flare it reasonably. And as I recall don't use flaps or at least more than one notch.

Brian

An hour of practice really wasn't enough, but I rarely fly the airplane.
 
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Yep. Its not a glider.
I fly a PA-32-260 with the hershey bar wing.

From 800' TPA abeam the numbers I am barely able to make the power off 180 and get it on the runway.
100mph best glide all the way, and pull full flaps when over the threshold.
If you come in any slower you won't have enough energy to arrest the descent and will smack the runway.
 
ajstoner21 said:
I was talking with a coworker, and he mentioned that once when him and a friend were flying a Cherokee Six, they "failed" (idle) the engine on downwind, abeam the numbers, and wasn't able to make it to the runway.

Has anyone else tried such a thing in a Cherokee Six? Is the glide that bad?
Click to expand...
The glide is not good, but you should still be able to make the runway in a Power Off 180 as specified in the Comm PTS.

I had to do a simulated engine failure when I got checked out in the C6 for the flying club. First time I tried it, I was coming up just a tad short and went around (in a real emergency, I could have brought it full flaps and the balloon effect would have been enough to make the pavement, but there was no point in cutting it that close in a training scenario). The second time around, I nailed the power off perfectly. It can be done as long as you remember it isn't a PA28!

But, FWIW, I don't think the glide in the C6 is any worse than the Arrow with the gear out.
 
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It is every bit as bad as CoFlyboy says. BTDT.
Landing at 1.3 Vso in teh Hershey PA32, without power is a SMACKON, most guys use about 1.4 WHEN THEY HAVE POWER.
 
I will say this - when I was doing it, it was from a 1000' pattern altitude so I had a bit more wiggle room than CoFlyboy. If you are trying it from '800, you best be perfect.
 
Wow. I had no idea. I kind of want to go find a Cherokee Six now and see for myself.
 
I don't care what SE GA plane you are in, if you can't make the runway from downwind abeam, you're flying waay too big of a pattern.
 
ajstoner21 said:
Wow. I had no idea. I kind of want to go find a Cherokee Six now and see for myself.
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If you pitch for 100mph and IMMEDIATELY turn toward the runway, you should be able to make it no problem with a little room to spare. If you delay the turn from the downwind, you won't make it.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I will say this - when I was doing it, it was from a 1000' pattern altitude so I had a bit more wiggle room than CoFlyboy. If you are trying it from '800, you best be perfect.
Click to expand...

You best be where you should be on downwind, end of story. If you can't make it, you need to retrain yourself in pattern work.
 
Yep, BTDT and you need to have it nailed. Find a long runway and set your target as the first fixed distance markers (or the third centerline stripe or something else a few hundred feet down the runway), and pull the power abeam that mark. TURN IMMEDIATELY.

Giving yourself the room to be a little short and not "off airport" will help you get the feel for the manuever without having to add power to "save it" as well as a safety margin if you find that you can't add power for any reason. The PTS doesn't specify WHERE on the runway you choose your touchdown point, only that you choose it and land on it accurately.
 
What do they say about helicopters: If the engine pukes, you look past your feet to the ground because that is where you are going to land. Not much different in the six.

As mentioned, the problem is that if the engine is out, you need to have a lot of speed to arrest the sink. To get enough speed without the engine running, you need to point the nose into the ground on final. After you've done a 180, you usually dont have that much altitude left.
 
Henning said:
You best be where you should be on downwind, end of story. If you can't make it, you need to retrain yourself in pattern work.
Click to expand...

That is a good point. I will also say this - when I was doing the sim engine failures in the C6, I was still a 150 hr PP. I've gotten much better at pwr off 180s in lots of different planes since then.
 
bbchien said:
It is every bit as bad as CoFlyboy says. BTDT.
Landing at 1.3 Vso in teh Hershey PA32, without power is a SMACKON, most guys use about 1.4 WHEN THEY HAVE POWER.
Click to expand...

Agree--at least with the Saratoga. And that has a "better" wing. 1.3 just don't work, in this case.
 
Henning said:
You best be where you should be on downwind, end of story. If you can't make it, you need to retrain yourself in pattern work.
Click to expand...

No argument on keeping the skills sharp, but if I flew the pattern the 6 wants all the time, I could cut in front of 172s flying square patterns.

The power off descent rate in my bird is about 1200 fpm. Mastering the maneuver is definitely a needed piloting skill, but I find it to be too close to the edge to do on a regular basis. I mostly fly to airports that are surrounded by very suitable off-field landing sites (ie all of Colorado east of the Rockies, excepting the actual Denver metro area). I'd rather put it in the field straight ahead, than try a 45+ degree bank and stretch the glide.
 
Add to everything above: Pull the blue knob (prop) all the way back as part of your emergency glide procedure in the PA32. It's good for a 200-300 fpm credit to the sink rate of my 300hp Toga. Probably less in the -260, but still a help.
 
ajstoner21 said:
I was talking with a coworker, and he mentioned that once when him and a friend were flying a Cherokee Six, they "failed" (idle) the engine on downwind, abeam the numbers, and wasn't able to make it to the runway.

Has anyone else tried such a thing in a Cherokee Six? Is the glide that bad?
Click to expand...

Prop full fine or full coarse? It makes a difference.

I did a midfield downwind "fail" in a straight leg 182 and I was going around on base before the final turn (with an immediate turn to base)..And I didn't fly a bomber pattern.. prop in/fine.. was like a speed brake..
 
Doggtyred said:
Prop full fine or full coarse? It makes a difference.

I did a midfield downwind "fail" in a straight leg 182 and I was going around on base before the final turn (with an immediate turn to base)..And I didn't fly a bomber pattern.. prop in/fine.. was like a speed brake..
Click to expand...
It does make a difference, but you should still be able to make the runway leaving the prop forward.
 
Doggtyred said:
Prop full fine or full coarse? It makes a difference.

I did a midfield downwind "fail" in a straight leg 182 and I was going around on base before the final turn (with an immediate turn to base)..And I didn't fly a bomber pattern.. prop in/fine.. was like a speed brake..
Click to expand...


That was actually my first question to him, about how the prop was set, but, he said it was too long ago for him to remember.
 
Very interesting thread. With such a struggle to make the runway after power fail abeam the numbers, I wonder what does one do if the power fails abeam mid-field on a 3000 ft runway?

edit: Sorry, I missed some of the midfield discussion above.
 
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skidoo said:
Very interesting thread. With such a struggle to make the runway after power fail abeam the numbers, I wonder what does one do if the power fails abeam mid-field on a 3000 ft runway?
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I don't think it is that big of a deal - most high performance aircraft are not good gliders as a general rule of thumb. The important take-away here is that it is not as easy as it is in the typical 4 seat planes folks usually do simulatated engine out landings in. As with any airplane, the pilot should know his/her airplane, know its limitations and know how to handle emergencies.

As far as the example of the engine failing mid-field on a 3000' runway - that is actually easier than failing abeam the numbers - it means that you have 1500' of wiggle room to land if your glide is coming up short.
 
Henning said:
You best be where you should be on downwind, end of story. If you can't make it, you need to retrain yourself in pattern work.
Click to expand...


Good point but for controlled fields where tower tells you to extend downwind. I've been sent waaaaaay out there on occasion.
 
Doggtyred said:
Prop full fine or full coarse? It makes a difference.

I did a midfield downwind "fail" in a straight leg 182 and I was going around on base before the final turn (with an immediate turn to base)..And I didn't fly a bomber pattern.. prop in/fine.. was like a speed brake..
Click to expand...

A lot of pilots are unaware of the "flat plate drag" that sets in when a controllable prop goes into flat/fine pitch...just like a big 84" flat plate bolted onto the crankshaft. Figure 12-3 in the Airplane Flying Handbook provides an excellent illustration.

Why are many pilots unaware of flat plate drag? Because many instructors are unaware of it. :mad2:

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
A lot of pilots are unaware of the "flat plate drag" that sets in when a controllable prop goes into flat/fine pitch...just like a big 84" flat plate bolted onto the crankshaft. Figure 12-3 in the Airplane Flying Handbook provides an excellent illustration.

Why are many pilots unaware of flat plate drag? Because many instructors are unaware of it. :mad2:

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

I'll have to go try it out and see how much of a difference it makes.

In a real engine out it is possible that there will not be any oil pressure to turn the blades to coarse pitch, which would suggest that the maneuver should be practiced with the blades flat for worst case.

Also, I am reluctant to set the prop to flat when practicing engine out 180s because if I do come up short, I'd have to shove the prop in before the throttle. This adds time and the prop wil slow me down pretty abruptly, pretty close to the ground. (and there's the outside chance of overspeeding while the governor is bringing the prop RPM up)
 
COFlyBoy said:
In a real engine out it is possible that there will not be any oil pressure to turn the blades to coarse pitch, which would suggest that the maneuver should be practiced with the blades flat for worst case.
Click to expand...

That is exactly why I don't advocate practicing engine outs in a single with the prop in coarse/low-RPM pitch.

Single engine controllable props are not built like those on multi engines. In an ME, high pressure drives the blades to fine pitch/high rpm. If you lose oil pressure, the prop will naturally want to go to coarse pitch. It is the exact opposite in most singles. Depending on the cause of the engine failure, you may not be able to do anything with the prop no matter what you do to the blue lever/knob.

If I lose an engine in a single, you better believe I'm pulling the prop, but I sure make sure that when I practice engine outs, that I am not depending on something that may not be there.
 
Doggtyred said:
Prop full fine or full coarse? It makes a difference.

I did a midfield downwind "fail" in a straight leg 182 and I was going around on base before the final turn (with an immediate turn to base)..And I didn't fly a bomber pattern.. prop in/fine.. was like a speed brake..
Click to expand...

Fearless Tower said:
It does make a difference, but you should still be able to make the runway leaving the prop forward.
Click to expand...

It makes huge difference in my 235. It feels like a leap forward when you pull the prop.

I was going to chime in but my Hershey Bar wing 235, which drops fast enough at 1000FPM at 90MPH best glide, is evidently not the same kind of rock as the Six.
 
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