Cherokee Pre_Flight Sucks

tlrussell

tlrussell

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Jun 11, 2014
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226
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St. Petersburg, Fl.
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pa32-300
Coming from a 182 that took like 5 minutes max outside to a Cherokee Six I need some help. Can someone give me a better way to do the main sump more effieciently? I'm using the POH method and getting like a quart of AVGAS in a bucket. Doing it by myself in and out like 3x is really no fun in Florida. If you have a flow that works better I'm all ears.
 
One of those shop roller/creeper things and knee replacement surgery? ;) ;)
 
How often do you fly?

If you say "seldom", sumping the belly pi$$er is important. If you say "every couple of days", not so much. I know several owners of Cherokee Sixes that only pee the belly sump at the annual inspection, just to make sure it still works. They sump each wing sump before each flight.

They fly often. YMMV.
 
you are coming from a plane that has 247 drains and requires you to shake the wings like some sort of cartoon, and you're complaining about draining a few sumps on the PA32 ?
 
The belly sump is the only real pain. Most don't sump that one before every flight.
 
you sump a quart? really?
 
JHW said:
you are coming from a plane that has 247 drains and requires you to shake the wings like some sort of cartoon, and you're complaining about draining a few sumps on the PA32 ?
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That was my first thought as well.
 
JHW said:
you are coming from a plane that has 247 drains and requires you to shake the wings like some sort of cartoon, and you're complaining about draining a few sumps on the PA32 ?
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Fearless Tower said:
That was my first thought as well.
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You guys realize there's a lot of variance of the fuel sumps between older 172/182's and newer ones, right?

The 172's I trained in had between 2 and 10 sumps to drain depending on the model year. My 182P has only two.
 
C182P said:
You guys realize there's a lot of variance of the fuel sumps between older 172/182's and newer ones, right?

The 172's I trained in had between 2 and 10 sumps to drain depending on the model year. My 182P has only two.
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I want to say it's actually 13 on the new skyhawks - 5 under each wing and 3 under the engine.
 
I don't sump my main drain before every flight. In fact, I don't sump it more than a few times a year. I know what the POH says about doing it but because of where the sump is located in the fuel system I don't see much need in it. I sump each of the four tanks with a GAATS jar and stick them with my home made fuel quantity stick and that's it.
 
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C182P said:
You guys realize there's a lot of variance of the fuel sumps between older 172/182's and newer ones, right?

The 172's I trained in had between 2 and 10 sumps to drain depending on the model year. My 182P has only two.
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Yes, but 182 with bladders have to do the rock and roll preflight even if they only do have two sumps.

You could always get a Navion. It's got a belly sump (and you work the gascolator down there as well) but at least it stands taller on the gear.

By the "belly drain" you mean the fuel strainer? A quart would seem excessive there, the thing only holds a few ounces. Once you get fuel rather than water out of it, you're done.
 
Chris Mitchell said:
I'm quite sure it won't fast Eddie that's why I do it that way.
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If the POH checklist calls for it, for some obscure reason the engineers who designed the system thought it a good idea.

Most Conservative Action would be to follow their recommendations.

But you're free to eliminate checklist items if you wish. At your own peril.

But lots of planes have gone down with just one slug of water in the wrong place at the wrong time. And it may only take once.

Putting this out there more for others reading the thread - I know I have little chance of convincing you to change your habits.

Good luck, and I will stipulate that you will probably go to your grave never having had an engine stoppage due to your omission of one checklist item.

Probably.
 
FastEddieB said:
If the POH checklist calls for it, for some obscure reason the engineers who designed the system thought it a good idea.

Most Conservative Action would be to follow their recommendations.

But you're free to eliminate checklist items if you wish. At your own peril.

But lots of planes have gone down with just one slug of water in the wrong place at the wrong time. And it may only take once.

Putting this out there more for others reading the thread - I know I have little chance of convincing you to change your habits.

Good luck, and I will stipulate that you will probably go to your grave never having had an engine stoppage due to your omission of one checklist item.

Probably.
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Thanks for the advice
 
I'm not familiar with Cherokee 6's but I can't imagine 140's and Arrows are that much different. Three sumps, one under each wing and one on the side of the cowling, seems like a piece of cake to me. Unless you have a real problem with kneeling I suppose.

A quart? A quick drain is a quick drain. How do you manage that?
 
tlrussell said:
Coming from a 182 that took like 5 minutes max outside to a Cherokee Six I need some help. Can someone give me a better way to do the main sump more effieciently? I'm using the POH method and getting like a quart of AVGAS in a bucket. Doing it by myself in and out like 3x is really no fun in Florida. If you have a flow that works better I'm all ears.
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I think if you're getting a quart, something is wrong with the quickdrain and it may need to be replaced. At the most, I pull 2-3 ounces each of the 3 drains on the cherokee using this classic.



Even the gatts jar doesn't need more than a couple ounces.

On the other hand, if you're seeing water, of course you're going to sump until there's no more water, right?
 

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Why don't we develop some system where we collect all the water from our fuel sumps and sell it back to Saudi Arabia? We need gas and they need water. Seems like a win/win to me...

:)
 
Chris Mitchell said:
Not really, but thanks anyway.
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Nice. The guy gives you a solid piece of advice and your response is to tell him his comments are not welcome.
They put those low point collection spots in there to collect water. Your decision to not drain it into a collection jar and take a look at it because it is hard to do is...well you don't need me to tell you...
'I didn't check it because it is hard to check, and besides, it never has any water in it!' will make a nice quote on a grave stone.
BTW, I think it is an awful design. The guy giving me the check out in a Saratoga told me to just pull the drain handle for a few seconds and move on. I stick a jar down there and catch it so I can see what is in there. I got pretty good at estimating where the stream was going to hit after a while! Like I said, it is an awful design. It take two people to get a sample without making a mess .

Jim
 
Kiddo's Driver said:
Nice. The guy gives you a solid piece of advice and your response is to tell him his comments are not welcome.
They put those low point collection spots in there to collect water. Your decision to not drain it into a collection jar and take a look at it because it is hard to do is...well you don't need me to tell you...
'I didn't check it because it is hard to check, and besides, it never has any water in it!' will make a nice quote on a grave stone.
BTW, I think it is an awful design. The guy giving me the check out in a Saratoga told me to just pull the drain handle for a few seconds and move on. I stick a jar down there and catch it so I can see what is in there. I got pretty good at estimating where the stream was going to hit after a while! Like I said, it is an awful design. It take two people to get a sample without making a mess .

Jim
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Pull the drain momentarily, then put a small bucket (we use the red plastic Folger containers...minus the coffee) down there on the wet spot and drain all four tanks. Peek in the bucket for telltale bubbles, then move on with your preflight.
 
Thanks 2x per week...there is a lot of gas line from the tank to the low spot. Now way am I not sumping it.
 
the belly drain is literally under the passenger seat. POH says 11 seconds for each tip tank and 5 sec for the mains holding the lever for 32 seconds gets you a quart of gas. what is surprising is the amount of detritus that comes out of the drain. Good reminder to keep the fuel filter clean though.
 
Kiddo's Driver said:
Nice. The guy gives you a solid piece of advice and your response is to tell him his comments are not welcome.
They put those low point collection spots in there to collect water. Your decision to not drain it into a collection jar and take a look at it because it is hard to do is...well you don't need me to tell you...
'I didn't check it because it is hard to check, and besides, it never has any water in it!' will make a nice quote on a grave stone.
BTW, I think it is an awful design. The guy giving me the check out in a Saratoga told me to just pull the drain handle for a few seconds and move on. I stick a jar down there and catch it so I can see what is in there. I got pretty good at estimating where the stream was going to hit after a while! Like I said, it is an awful design. It take two people to get a sample without making a mess .

Jim
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what he said...
 
murphey said:
I think if you're getting a quart, something is wrong with the quickdrain and it may need to be replaced. At the most, I pull 2-3 ounces each of the 3 drains on the cherokee using this classic.



Even the gatts jar doesn't need more than a couple ounces.

On the other hand, if you're seeing water, of course you're going to sump until there's no more water, right?
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I wasn't looking to deviate from the POH I was look for someone who has optimized the way to handle it.

1. in for flaps and gatt jar then out.
2. get bucket and knee pad
3. walkaround
4. in to be a gymnast and get the drain lever, dammit forget the bucket out to center bucket.
5. in for drain lever listen make sure fuel stream is hitting bucket. out...
6. adjust bucket
7 in for drain lever
8. hold lever for 32 sec 11 per tip 5 per main
9 out for bucket refill tip using for taxi
10 pull out hair
11 go flying...
 
Sump for 32 seconds? I'm pretty sure something is being misread.
 
tlrussell said:
the belly drain is literally under the passenger seat. POH says 11 seconds for each tip tank and 5 sec for the mains holding the lever for 32 seconds gets you a quart of gas. what is surprising is the amount of detritus that comes out of the drain. Good reminder to keep the fuel filter clean though.
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Is this belly drain the lowest point drain on this plane? If so check it often!
When the mooney 201 quit on me at teterboro at 400 feet, on takeoff, the one under the pilots seat was the culprit. It was full of a jelly like substance according to the mechanic in New Jersey. It had just had an annual by a lousy mechanic at my home field. If I'd requested an intersection takeoff, I would have died. The airplane had sat outside for several months with faulty gas caps that were not changed as requested. They were still in a box on the mechanics desk. Be very cautious of who works on your plane, many times it's a young person who is " learning". Your paying top dollar for a professional. As it was, I just got the gear back down when I touched back down, using the entire runway.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Is this belly drain the lowest point drain on this plane? If so check it often!
When the mooney 201 quit on me at teterboro at 400 feet, on takeoff, the one under the pilots seat was the culprit. It was full of a jelly like substance according to the mechanic in New Jersey. It had just had an annual by a lousy mechanic at my home field. If I'd requested an intersection takeoff, I would have died. The airplane had sat outside for several months with faulty gas caps that were not changed as requested. They were still in a box on the mechanics desk. Be very cautious of who works on your plane, many times it's a young person who is " learning". Your paying top dollar for a professional. As it was, I just got the gear back down when I touched back down, using the entire runway.
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This is precisely why I asked the OP "how often do you fly"?

If you're flying a rental, or you don't fly often, SUMP THE BELLY. If your plane is hangared, well-maintained by you, you gas the plane from a known source yourself, and you fly every few days, it's entirely optional.

We flew our Pathfinder, with the same fuel system, this way for 12 years. We always sumped the individual tanks before each flight.

As for sumping a quart, well, that's excessive by any measure.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Is this belly drain the lowest point drain on this plane? If so check it often!
When the mooney 201 quit on me at teterboro at 400 feet, on takeoff, the one under the pilots seat was the culprit. It was full of a jelly like substance according to the mechanic in New Jersey. It had just had an annual by a lousy mechanic at my home field. If I'd requested an intersection takeoff, I would have died. The airplane had sat outside for several months with faulty gas caps that were not changed as requested. They were still in a box on the mechanics desk. Be very cautious of who works on your plane, many times it's a young person who is " learning". Your paying top dollar for a professional. As it was, I just got the gear back down when I touched back down, using the entire runway.
Click to expand...

Amen Jim, glad it worked out thanks for the advice.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I'm not familiar with Cherokee 6's but I can't imagine 140's and Arrows are that much different. Three sumps, one under each wing and one on the side of the cowling, seems like a piece of cake to me. Unless you have a real problem with kneeling I suppose.
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It is significantly different from PA28s. For one, they are fuel injected. You don't have a gascolator drain on the side of the cowling like a PA28.

In addition to the 4 tank drains, the PA32s have a belly drain that is controlled inside the cockpit and located behind the front seats. In the old days it was easy. You drained it from inside the cockpit and let it go all over the ramp. In today's environmentally regulated world, you basically need to put a bucket under the drain and then get into the cockpit to release the drain. Only kneeling required is to place/remove the bucket.
 
At least it ain't a vintage mooney cowling....
 
tlrussell said:
Amen Jim, glad it worked out thanks for the advice.
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I had flown the airplane after the annual several times with no problem. I did not realize he had not replaced the gas caps. If your airplane is hangared probably not a problem. The mooney had sat outside waiting for a hangar. The mechanics who repaired it in N.J. Said that bottom strainer is critical as it's the lowest point. Makes sense to me. Since then I've tried to be very careful who works on my plane. It scared the living sh$$ out of me and my wife! Never forgot how close we came.
 
Kiddo's Driver said:
Nice. The guy gives you a solid piece of advice and your response is to tell him his comments are not welcome.
They put those low point collection spots in there to collect water. Your decision to not drain it into a collection jar and take a look at it because it is hard to do is...well you don't need me to tell you...
'I didn't check it because it is hard to check, and besides, it never has any water in it!' will make a nice quote on a grave stone.
BTW, I think it is an awful design. The guy giving me the check out in a Saratoga told me to just pull the drain handle for a few seconds and move on. I stick a jar down there and catch it so I can see what is in there. I got pretty good at estimating where the stream was going to hit after a while! Like I said, it is an awful design. It take two people to get a sample without making a mess .

Jim
Click to expand...

Maybe that's because I don't need the advice, nor did I ask for it.
 
LDJones said:
Pull the drain momentarily, then put a small bucket (we use the red plastic Folger containers...minus the coffee) down there on the wet spot and drain all four tanks. Peek in the bucket for telltale bubbles, then move on with your preflight.
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That is pretty much what I ended up doing. I kept a cut off water bottle to do the catching. I put it down (guessed), gave it a quick squirt, and then adjusted as necessary. I got pretty good a guessing after a while!
 
Chris Mitchell said:
Maybe that's because I don't need the advice, nor did I ask for it.
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That's the spirit! Dig in!
Is there anything else we don't need to do before we go flying? You seem to have a good handle on it and don't need anyone else's advice. Clearly that means that you have it all figured out. Please share. I'm open to learning something new.

Oh, nevermind. Have a nice day!
 
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