Checkride & engine failure

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sabrina444

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sabrina444
During my flight test last year December, my instructor turned both fuel tanks off whilst I was flying (unbeknown to me as the are located behind us in the aircraft) and I was expected to perform an emergency landing at our airfield. When the propeller became stationery I realized what happened, turned the fuel back on, restarted the aircraft and performed a normal circuit.

We were flying at 3000' and were well within easy gliding range of the airfield. With every approach during training I was expected to glide (with the engine set to idle) from abeam the runway threshold through the rest of the downwind leg, the base leg and final leg to touchdown. I also fly a sailplane which probably helped:wink2:. The aircraft is an Aeroprakt A22 Foxbat / Cape Town light sport aircraft.

Has anyone else experienced this, either during a flight test or been in a real emergency of this sort?

It is a long video :rolleyes2: - the highlights are:
Stall recovery - 11m:25s
Engine failure - 15m:26s
Short field landing - 17m:00s

 
Excellent! I'm newly sold on primary training in an LSA class aircraft.

I suspect whatever glider time you have serves you well. Nicely done all around.

Ever experienced an engine failure, simulated or actual? No. Plenty of off-field landings in gliders though. A dead engine at altitude over cultivated land doesn't really seem like an emergency with that experience. Still challenging though.

I was first! :D
 
Completely killing the engine is stupid, stupid, stupid - and simply not allowed in a single engine aircraft.
Not only would I never fly with the guy again, I would file a formal written complaint with the FSDO against him.
Oh yeah, did I mention it was stupid? sheeesh :mad2:
 
Dr. O said:
Completely killing the engine is stupid, stupid, stupid - and simply not allowed in a single engine aircraft.
Not only would I never fly with the guy again, I would file a formal written complaint with the FSDO against him.
Oh yeah, did I mention it was stupid? sheeesh :mad2:
Click to expand...

Wrong.

This is a Rotax 912 and will start instantly when you add fuel and touch the starter. This is excellent training for students in LSA aircraft, and aviators in general. Far too many pilots die when the engine quits and the pilot gives up, or doesn't remember to fly the airplane. They still have a plane with altitude! Training overcomes fear if the unknown, and this training will save lives.

We practiced this maneuver all the time, and it was required in the practical portion of my ultralight instructor training. I had to do 3 engine off landings in a row and land in the middle of the runway or fail the exam.
 
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sabrina444 said:
During my flight test last year December, my instructor turned both fuel tanks off whilst I was flying (unbeknown to me as the are located behind us in the aircraft) and I was expected to perform an emergency landing at our airfield. When the propeller became stationery I realized what happened, turned the fuel back on, restarted the aircraft and performed a normal circuit.

We were flying at 3000' and were well within easy gliding range of the airfield. With every approach during training I was expected to glide (with the engine set to idle) from abeam the runway threshold through the rest of the downwind leg, the base leg and final leg to touchdown. I also fly a sailplane which probably helped:wink2:. The aircraft is an Aeroprakt A22 Foxbat / Cape Town light sport aircraft.

Has anyone else experienced this, either during a flight test or been in a real emergency of this sort?

It is a long video :rolleyes2: - the highlights are:
Stall recovery - 11m:25s
Engine failure - 15m:26s
Short field landing - 17m:00s

Click to expand...

I'm sure it is unnerving, but I think you have an incredible instructor willing to teach the skills needed to be a safe pilot. The training you are getting in what to do in an emergency will stay with you the rest of your career, and may save your plane, and your life.

I have had 3 engine out emergences flying ultralights. Only one damaged the airplane due to rough terrain.

Here is my video of a dead stick landing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xZmsxEewik&feature=youtube_gdata_player
 
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Dr. O said:
Not only would I never fly with the guy again, I would file a formal written complaint with the FSDO against him.
Oh yeah, did I mention it was stupid? sheeesh :mad2:
Click to expand...

By the look and sound of things, I don't think there's a single inspector at any FSDO that would care.
 
I had an instructor get me over the end of a long runway, on a weekday with no traffic, very high up and killed the engine, and pulled it back to stop the propellor, then told me to spiral down to the runway. I probably had no more than 25 or 30 hours at the time, but pulled it off and set it down on the numbers.

He was an old school instructor who at the time (1990) would not sign you off for a checkride unless you did spins with him. I had to stop flying at that time and had a 20 year break before taking it up again. After pretty much starting over, I never had instructors do things like he did. I believe that I'm a better pilot for it.
 
Dr. O said:
Completely killing the engine is stupid, stupid, stupid - and simply not allowed in a single engine aircraft.
Not only would I never fly with the guy again, I would file a formal written complaint with the FSDO against him.
Oh yeah, did I mention it was stupid? sheeesh :mad2:
Click to expand...

Almost all threads about instructors/DPE at some point have the Post "don't fly with him again, find someone else"

LSA DPE's have a lot more leeway than the rest of the DPE's, with some good reason in my opinion. You have to remember the FAA doesn't think of the LSA certificate as a simple Private pilot certificate, they think of it as an enhanced ultra light certificate. Since many Light sport aircraft are really just Fat Ultralights and fly with many systems and engines not used in normally certified aircraft it makes sense to emphasize engine out procedures. I haven't had a lot of hours with two stroke engines, but most people I know who do, have had at least one if not several power failures. I personally have watched several fail. (I did note that the OP is flying a 4 stroke engine, but he is legal to fly two strokes)

I still not sure why pilots think shutting an engine off at 3000 feet over at least 3 suitable landing sites is more dangerous than taking off from a 3000 foot runway with no land-able areas off the departure end.

The 1st scenario has 3 back up plans all involve an undamaged airplane, the 2nd only has 1, involving a damaged airplane.

Scenario 1 - if engine does not restart or primary landing are becomes unusable
1. restart engine
2. landing on primary runway
3. land on taxiway or alternate runway
4. land in field or off the side of the runway

scenario 2 - if engine fails
1. Crash into softest cheapest thing you can find
Brian

BTW, I am not a proponent of practicing actual engine outs in most aircraft, simply because the only real value in doing so is to demonstrate how little difference there is between an actual engine out and an idling engine, in most aircraft it is almost no difference.
 
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Killing the one engine in a single-engine airplane on a practical test with the fuel selector is strictly prohibited by FAA Order. The only acceptable means for engine failure tasks below 3000 feet (and the Task under discussion continues below 3000 feet even if initiated above that altitude) is "throttle to idle", and there is no exception in FAA Order 8900.2 for LSA's. This examiner should, as Denny said, be reported to the FSDO so they can take appropriate action.

And yes, this happened to me 42 years ago in a Cessna 150 with an FAA Inspector on my CP-ASEL practical test -- before it was explicitly prohibited. I probably should have strangled the Inspector, but instead just shut up and took my new certificate without further discussion. I would not be so passive if an examiner did that today with either me or one of my trainees. It is interesting to note that about two months after that event, an FAA alert went out about a problem with several C-150 fuel selectors locking in the closed position due to an internal material failure -- once closed, they could not be reopened. Glad that didn't happen to us.

If you really can't stand not doing such a shutdown/restart, at least have the sense to do it overhead a good airport, starting high enough that you can complete the restart above 3000 AGL. Other than that, there is no reason to give away your go-around capability by flying a dead-engine approach to a landing -- the difference in handling and performance between dead engine and zero-thrust isn't significant.
 
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I don't believe that the FAA or any FSDO will care much if you told them that some flight instructor in Australia shut off the fuel during a training flight.
 
Ron Levy said:
Killing the one engine in a single-engine airplane on a practical test with the fuel selector is strictly prohibited by FAA Order. The only acceptable means for engine failure tasks below 3000 feet (and the Task under discussion continues below 3000 feet even if initiated above that altitude) is "throttle to idle", and there is no exception in FAA Order 8900.2 for LSA's. This examiner should, as Denny said, be reported to the FSDO so they can take appropriate action.
Click to expand...
This was training with her instructor (maybe test prep?), not a practical test with a DPE. Note that he sends her off for solo practice at the end.
 
This is in Australia, rules about killing the engine might be different.
 
Johann beat me to it.

Somehow I don't think the FAA has much to say about training outside of the USA.
 
Lindberg said:
This was training with her instructor (maybe test prep?), not a practical test with a DPE. Note that he sends her off for solo practice at the end.
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I saw "checkride" and "flight test", and assumed that meant a practical test. As to doing it with an instructor, I think it's still a lousy idea, although I'm not dead-set opposed if you do it as I said above (over an airport, high enough to get the restart before reaching 3000 AGL). However, going all the way to landing with the fuel selector off is not acceptable to me, and I think if you ask the FSDO, they'll have some searching questions for any instructor who does that.
 
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Johann said:
This is in Australia, rules about killing the engine might be different.
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I'll ask the Aussie DPE with whom I took my CASA flight review three years ago about that, and report back. However, from a safety perspective, I'll stand by my advice above -- no engine failures other than by throttle below 3000 AGL, and even above that, only when there's an airport directly below and the maneuver is planned to allow restart above 3000 AGL.
 
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As stated before, I learned in an 85 champ. The instructor had taught in Stearmans and gliders in WW2 . ( the gliders that carried troops)This was late 50's . He never shut the engine down. Idled it. He would go maybe three miles from the airport, over farm fields, 2000 ft. Or so, suddenly pull power to idle and ask where was I going to land. I'd better had the wind right and a decent field or he would get testy. He preferred good slips, totally cross controlled down to say 20 feet maybe a little lower. He would also take control, slip it down to a few feet, raise the nose, still in a slip and gently snap it straight, just above the ground. and land it, using very little runway. I tried to copy that but never did it as well. He later died in a Luscombe station wagon owned by a pal. He was moving it to his field for an annual. It had not flown in a while. It quit on takeoff, went into trees, killed him. Vic Whitway. Great guy!
 
Geico266 said:
Wrong.

This is a Rotax 912 and will start instantly when you add fuel and touch the starter. This is excellent training for students in LSA aircraft, and aviators in general. Far too many pilots die when the engine quits and the pilot gives up, or doesn't remember to fly the airplane. They still have a plane with altitude! Training overcomes fear if the unknown, and this training will save lives.

We practiced this maneuver all the time, and it was required in the practical portion of my ultralight instructor training. I had to do 3 engine off landings in a row and land in the middle of the runway or fail the exam.
Click to expand...

What if the starter went TU?
 
Not that I don't think killing the engine intentionally is even remotely a good idea, but you can probably get away with it in something that is real close to a glider, directly over a big landing strip surrounded by flat, smooth, grassy fields.
 
I agree. Shutting the engine off is really dumb! Murphy's law is ever present. Practicing over the airport doesn't cut it. You need to be over unfamiliar ground to make a wise decision.....as you would be in most cases.
 
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I'd cut the engine in a seaplane over a decent size (non-Great) lake.
 
EdFred said:
I'd cut the engine in a seaplane over a decent size (non-Great) lake.
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Never flown a seaplane or amphib but I'm thinking that my old Maule with floats would be a much riskier operation deadstick over water than the same Maule on conventional gear over an airport.

Why? Elevator effectiveness relative to airspeed.
 
Thank you all for your comments. The stopped prop looked so different to an idling prop. Will view your video Geico.

I have always felt I received the best possible training from my instructors who I (and my parents) feel did an outstanding job of training me to be a safe, confident pilot. Not sure how many pilots are trained to do s-turns, slips, hover taxi / strip run just above stall 3' above the strip just above stall for most of the length of the runway (it's tough:wink2:), flying without instruments and glide approaches on every landing they ever performed.

 
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